What wire to build my own RCA interconnects?

[SIY]

When you plug it in initially it's not bad.
In between, especially at 20-50 hrs mark, things sound pretty distorted with complex instrument/voice sounds, when it comes to high spectrum end. Like it's missing, sounds like a big roll off. So IME the second day is the point when you think 'wtf is this', but luckily, from that point on things start to improve. I guess using certain samples speeds things up but I used 'light' music only. The next time I would use something like Densen DeMagic in hope it would burn the insulation in faster, but I yet have to try this.

LOLOLOL, beautiful.

 

[solderdude]

When you plug it in initially it's not bad.
In between, especially at 20-50 hrs mark, things sound pretty distorted with complex instrument/voice sounds, when it comes to high spectrum end. Like it's missing, sounds like a big roll off. So IME the second day is the point when you think 'wtf is this', but luckily, from that point on things start to improve. I guess using certain samples speeds things up but I used 'light' music only. The next time I would use something like Densen DeMagic in hope it would burn the insulation in fhaster, but I yet have to try this.

Any idea what causes these audible effects ?
Surely there must be some kind of technical explanation somewhere.

Maybe using a blow torch would burn the insulation a bit faster ?
Probably cheaper than Densen DeMagic

 

[eliash]

When you plug it in initially it's not bad.
In between, especially at 20-50 hrs mark, things sound pretty distorted with complex instrument/voice sounds, when it comes to high spectrum end. Like it's missing, sounds like a big roll off. So IME the second day is the point when you think 'wtf is this', but luckily, from that point on things start to improve. I guess using certain samples speeds things up but I used 'light' music only. The next time I would use something like Densen DeMagic in hope it would burn the insulation in faster, but I yet have to try this.

After 175h, the oxide build-up is complete and then the max. possible SNR is achieved - Dead silence...

 

[eliash]

When you plug it in initially it's not bad.
In between, especially at 20-50 hrs mark, things sound pretty distorted with complex instrument/voice sounds, when it comes to high spectrum end. Like it's missing, sounds like a big roll off. So IME the second day is the point when you think 'wtf is this', but luckily, from that point on things start to improve. I guess using certain samples speeds things up but I used 'light' music only. The next time I would use something like Densen DeMagic in hope it would burn the insulation in faster, but I yet have to try this.

...some high-end equipment needs 175h of burn-in, me needing 175h burn-out time after reading this!

 

[zalive]

Any idea what causes these audible effects ?
Surely there must be some kind of technical explanation somewhere.

Electricity charge/discharge cycle. Current charges the dielectric, which then discharges back into conductor, only with a delay relative to the signal (insulated wire is a capacitor as well). So it basically creates echo spurs of the same frequency as a signal, only with a time delay. It won't show in a frequency sweep because spurs will be overshadowed with the basic frequency and that measurement does not measure time delay.

Now there is some reason during a burn in time when it gets really obnoxious, like dielectric is a bit different, and also frequency selective when it comes to the intensity of discharge, and the effect/signature of this time distortion is generally more pronounced. Beats me. Attempts to explain may fail. But I know what I hear, don't worry. This happens, this is real.

 

[zalive]

- Again RCA connectors, this time concerning measures.

I really recommend StarLine RCA connectors. Single point contact at mass, hollow signal pin, completely low conductor mass, AFAIK no nickel, no brass or bronze, just gold (or silver) plated tellurium copper. Plus moderate price compared to similar quality/design RCA's. Massive metal contacts are not a good idea because of pronounced skin effect where the majority of the signal current will be flowing through inferior surface made of various metals mix plus their contact surface.

 

[DonH56]

Teflon insulation requires some burn in time, 120+ hrs.

Oh great, all the 1 to 100+ GHz measurements of systems with 80 ~ 160 dB of dynamic range that I've been taking for decades are all invalid because I did not burn in my Gore cables... Or maybe that just applies at audio frequencies since they are so much harder to transmit cleanly?

Filling the charge traps in a cable does not take 120+ hours in my experience, or in anything I've read and measured over the years. There are some long-term effects and theoretically charge storage could be "infinite" in some cases but in practice it is on the order of the prop delay of the cable with a few cycles getting 99.999% (or whatever) of the charge traps filled. What's left are a few electrons here and there. I did measure the effects ages ago; it took a leaf voltmeter to catch fV issues after a few seconds.

As for frequency response not showing things; do steps or impulses, or just do like all the data link testers on the planet and do eye diagrams and jitter testing. The types of things that would be audible would be easily measured.

 

[SIY]

Wait until LIGO hears that their data are all invalid. Oh man, we may have a way to put a class action lawsuit against all the MRI manufacturers as well for ignoring this massive issue that was discovered by a niche market in audio!

 

[RayDunzl]

It won't show in a frequency sweep because spurs will be overshadowed with the basic frequency and that measurement does not measure time delay.

Then it would show in the Impulse Response.

 

[SIY]

Then it would show in the Impulse Response.

It will also show up in a frequency sweep- the premise was fundamentally wrong, but many people (most) don't understand measurement very well.

 

[Krunok]

LOLOLOL, beautiful.

He's kidding right?

 

[SIY]

He's kidding right?

I dearly hoped so, but unfortunately, I may have been wrong.

 

[Krunok]

I really recommend StarLine RCA connectors. Single point contact at mass, hollow signal pin, completely low conductor mass, AFAIK no nickel, no brass or bronze, just gold (or silver) plated tellurium copper. Plus moderate price compared to similar quality/design RCA's. Massive metal contacts are not a good idea because of pronounced skin effect where the majority of the signal current will be flowing through inferior surface made of various metals mix plus their contact surface.

Oh sure, skin effect! That bugger would certainly cause higher frequencies to be dampened as resistance would rise, right? I only wonder why is that not visible in the frequency sweep..

 

[SIY]

When you learn E&M theory from ad brochures produced by scammers, you can come up with all sorts of interesting conclusions.

 

[Krunok]

When you learn E&M theory from ad brochures produced by scammers, you can come up with all sorts of interesting conclusions.

But look at this, this sounds very scientific, doesn't it?

"So it basically creates echo spurs of the same frequency as a signal, only with a time delay. It won't show in a frequency sweep because spurs will be overshadowed with the basic frequency and that measurement does not measure time delay."

Obviously we have to watch for phase shift with cheap ICs..

 

[SIY]

I'm hoping that he starts digging into learning about things like Fourier and Laplace, as well as basic E&M.

It's always useful to ask yourself, when reading FUD from cable peddlers, "If this is true, how can MRIs, computers, televisions, space probes, particle detectors, oscilloscopes, spectrum analyzers, and cell phones work if simple wires are doing these terrible things?"

 

[Krunok]

I'm hoping that he starts digging into learning about things like Fourier and Laplace, as well as basic E&M.

It's always useful to ask yourself, when reading FUD from cable peddlers, "If this is true, how can MRIs, computers, televisions, space probes, particle detectors, oscilloscopes, spectrum analyzers, and cell phones work if simple wires are doing these terrible things?"

Here's what's bugging me: if it takes 2 days for the IC cable to "burn-in" how many days it takes to overburn them? Shouldn't they be periodically replaced in that case?

 

[solderdude]

Electricity charge/discharge cycle. Current charges the dielectric

Which current would that be and how would a current charge the dielectric ?

which then discharges back into conductor, only with a delay relative to the signal

How much of the current (percentage please) discharges back into the conductor, in what delay and relative to what applied signal ?

How much does the percentage change before and after the burn-in period ?

insulated wire is a capacitor as well

Absolutely. RCA cables can vary between a few hundred pF to a 1nF ... all wires separated with a 'medium' are capacitors.

So it basically creates echo spurs of the same frequency as a signal, only with a time delay.

So if I put a very short pulse in a wire I will see a pulse at the end trailed by a second pulse.
Well that's actually true because when we do not load a cable properly (impedance matching) on both ends we will see reflections.
The trouble here is that this will be the case after 1 second of usage and 100 years of usage.
That does not change.
Someone with a TDR could do an experiment with a new cable and repeat it after it has been DeMagic'ed for a month.

Do you expect to see a difference ?

It won't show in a frequency sweep because spurs will be overshadowed with the basic frequency and that measurement does not measure time delay.

No, it won't show in a frequency response sweep. BUT if it were true there would be a difference between an applied signal and a received signal on the other end (which are connected hardwired via about 1 Ohm or so).
One will measure a short delay (in ns depending on the length) which will expose itself as an increasing phase shift when the frequency becomes higher.
The shape of the sine wave would be the same though.

When we would compensate for this delay we can compare (null) the in and output signal. When that nulls the signal is unchanged.
When the signal distorts (changes shape) this is quite measurable. THD measurements work that way.
This means that Amirs AP should be able to show different loop backs with a new and burned in cable would it not ?

Problem... the differences one would measure are in the noise floor and when one repeats a measurement at another day or slightly different circumstances there would be 'something' visible BUT no-one can tell whether it is due to the 'theory' you adhere to or measurement error.

Now there is some reason during a burn in time when it gets really obnoxious, like dielectric is a bit different, and also frequency selective when it comes to the intensity of discharge, and the effect/signature of this time distortion is generally more pronounced.

And these differences in the dielectric (while connected to a very low impedance source) somehow occur in the audible range of the spectrum and are large enough (> -70dB) to be heard yet cannot be shown in any measurements that can go as low as 120dB easily

Beats me.

I quess it beats all of us.

Attempts to explain may fail.

You mean: All attempts to explain have always failed right up to this day.

But I know what I hear, don't worry.

I am not worried in the least.
That first remark explains a lot though.

This happens, this is real.

Shit happens as well and in a certain form certainly is real.

 

[SIY]

@solderdude I think that an echo will show up in a frequency response sweep, assuming the echo is a constant, at multiples of f = 2/t where t is the echo time, because of constructive and destructive interference.

 

[Krunok]

@solderdude I think that an echo will show up in a frequency response sweep, assuming the echo is a constant, at multiples of f = 2/t where t is the echo time, because of constructive and destructive interference.

Only for first 2 days before it burns-in, after that it will magically dissapear. And it is totally unclear to me what would happen once the cable overburns.