What to trust ear or measurement?

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Measurements can be useful for engineers, no doubt. But is there any correlation between ever improving measurements and better sound? I think not! Audio products are made first for listening, not measuring, right! They're not scientific test instruments, they're entertainment, or at least I hope so!

What an illogical statement.
Audio gear should be transparent. Measurements are the easiest way of verifying transparency.

Now, if transparent gear does not sound good, do you know what that means?

The recording is either badly done or not done to your taste.

There is a very simple solution for the latter, though if a recording is really bad, it might not be possible to salvage it:
https://www.fabfilter.com/products/pro-q-3-equalizer-plug-in

I prefer to be in control of the coloration of my system and not relinquishing said control to the components.
Transducers excluded for obvious reasons.

Absolute threshold is very well known. Achieve that and you don't need to be desperate for anything. If that performance was expensive, then sure, we would need to research lower levels. But since it is not, there is no need to sweat it.

Amir senpai, I know many people that would consider "benchmark money" quite expensive to borderline unobtainable.

 

[BDWoody]

JW has an array of extremely expensive test equipment and I’m sure he will have tested the Chord. But that’s not the point. Which way do you think the expectation bias was of the Chord’s owner and how strong do you think that bias was? (£16k is a lot of money for a DAC by anybody’s standards.). If you think that should be dismissed out of hand then carry on your merry way.

I think any listening comparison that is done without controls can be safely dismissed out of hand. I doubt you are suggesting he sold it based on the measurements from his array of 'extremely expensive test equipment.' Does he point out on the graphs where he messed with the signal to change the sound for the better? Would be easy to see where they were audibly different...if in fact they were in any audible sense.

Guided listening to sell a product isn't really useful as a reference.

 

[Jimbob54]

Well sure...

Wonder how they 'tested.'

Listened for the air.

 

[Wombat]

Actual tests of Leica lenses? What else would I base it on.

So in terms of this thread, not your ears.

 

[JeffS7444]

Actual tests of Leica lenses? What else would I base it on.

Uh huh, goodness knows there are enough photo equipment reviews which are no more systematic than one of Steve Guttenberg's audio reviews. Off the top of my head I can only think of 2 places online which attempt to quantify lens performance: Dxomark and Roger Cicala's reviews on lensrentals.com, but Cicala is not basing his MTF results based on what's possible when lens is mounted on actual camera body equipped with Bayer-type sensor.

 

[Objectivist01]

Uh huh, goodness knows there are enough photo equipment reviews which are no more systematic than one of Steve Guttenberg's audio reviews. Off the top of my head I can only think of 2 places online which attempt to quantify lens performance: Dxomark and Roger Cicala's reviews on lensrentals.com, but Cicala is not basing his MTF results based on what's possible when lens is mounted on actual camera body equipped with Bayer-type sensor.

Beautiful photos most of the time aren’t the ones with the most natural colors. That’s the same reason why Hi-Fi exists despite studio monitors. People don’t want to listen to just what’s in the recording.
In my point of view with music if transparency is not what we are aiming we aren’t appreciating the artists hard work well enough. People who are thinking objective ness is not needed are fake music enthusiasts who loves equalizers.

 

[Objectivist01]

Can someone list the names of all the YouTube subjective bullshit reviewers ?

 

[solderdude]

Can someone list the names of all the YouTube subjective bullshit reviewers ?

and endless list is not that easy to make... and won't fit in a single post as posts are limited in size.

 

[solderdude]

JW has an array of extremely expensive test equipment and I’m sure he will have tested the Chord. But that’s not the point. Which way do you think the expectation bias was of the Chord’s owner and how strong do you think that bias was? (£16k is a lot of money for a DAC by anybody’s standards.). If you think that should be dismissed out of hand then carry on your merry way.

Does bias really work this way ?

 

[Objectivist01]

Does bias really work this way ?

Haha. 16k and it must be something bias !

 

[Koeitje]

Uh huh, goodness knows there are enough photo equipment reviews which are no more systematic than one of Steve Guttenberg's audio reviews. Off the top of my head I can only think of 2 places online which attempt to quantify lens performance: Dxomark and Roger Cicala's reviews on lensrentals.com, but Cicala is not basing his MTF results based on what's possible when lens is mounted on actual camera body equipped with Bayer-type sensor.

Dpreview take standard shots for everything. The thing is that with camera's is that you can't always put the same sensor behind the lens, but in the end that doesn't matter because its about the result of the system. There is no need to stick a number on everything.

 

[tuga]

Dpreview take standard shots for everything. The thing is that with camera's is that you can't always put the same sensor behind the lens, but in the end that doesn't matter because its about the result of the system. There is no need to stick a number on everything.

A camera+lens is the ADC+mic. A printer or a computer display is more akin to a hi-fi system.

 

[Objectivist01]

Dpreview take standard shots for everything. The thing is that with camera's is that you can't always put the same sensor behind the lens, but in the end that doesn't matter because its about the result of the system. There is no need to stick a number on everything.

Not with audio , numbers to the threshold of hearability matters. End of it!

 

[Objectivist01]

A camera+lens is the ADC+mic. A printer or a computer display is more akin to a hi-fi system.

Exactly my view. The “camera” is the Hi-Fi system. Lens can be a speaker or some other part of it in that analogy.

 

[tuga]

Exactly my view. The “camera” is the Hi-Fi system. Lens can be a speaker or some other part of it in that analogy.

I think you misunderstood my analogy.

A lens & camera combo records, a printer or a computer monitor reproduces the recording.
The camera (with lens) is not the hi-fi system.

 

[JeffS7444]

Dpreview take standard shots for everything. The thing is that with camera's is that you can't always put the same sensor behind the lens, but in the end that doesn't matter because its about the result of the system. There is no need to stick a number on everything.

But then how can you know that spending extra $$ gets you higher lens quality?

 

[Objectivist01]

I think you misunderstood my analogy.

A lens & camera combo records, a printer or a computer monitor reproduces the recording.
The camera (with lens) is not the hi-fi system.

Whatever .. with sound measurements matter, if not any cheapo 5 dollar dac or amp with distortion is equivalent to 50k dac or amp with another pattern of distortion. Both are garbage imo.

 

[Objectivist01]

But then how can you know that spending extra $$ gets you higher lens quality?

How do you define lens quality? Lens which measures the same from 100 brands would produce the same picture quality. Doesn’t matter if it’s sold for 10 bucks or 10 thousand bucks.

if they measure different, they are not Apple to Apple comparison

 

[Koeitje]

A camera+lens is the ADC+mic. A printer or a computer display is more akin to a hi-fi system.

Yes, true. But this all started with somebody comparing Leica to high-end audio. I said that is not true, because Leica is a high quality product that creates high quality images. While high-end hifi seems to have a lot of bad performers.

 

[Objectivist01]

Yes, true. But this all started with somebody comparing Leica to high-end audio. I said that is not true, because Leica is a high quality product that creates high quality images. While high-end hifi seems to have a lot of bad performers.

Leica is not essentially pairing a natural picture with accurate colors like real life. According to audiophools hi end audio aims for that out of the world unreal feel than accuracy.