What to trust ear or measurement?

[HiFiDiscoveryTrip]

Try for yourself. Play music at your normal level then turn it down 88dB. If you can clearly hear the sound at a level, and think you would still be able to hear it at the same time music was playing then there is a good chance you can hear the difference. If not there is a good chance it is placebo, which is real enough, ie you really will hear a difference even when there isn't one.

I don't quite understand your intent.
I get the feeling that you are trying to convince me that what I am hearing cannot be true.

I have listened to the Bluesound daily for a year and a half as it also serves as a DAC when I watch TV. So my memory has gotten used to the sound of this device.

According to my ears, the Okto (so on top of the fact that the spec sheet of this is much better) sounds a lot more detailed and smooth, for lack of a better word.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I don't quite understand your intent.
I get the feeling that you are trying to convince me that what I am hearing cannot be true.

I do think you hear a difference.
What I was suggesting is for you yourself to get an idea as to whether the difference you hear is due to the SINAD of the inferior item being -88dB.
I know I can't hear that, maybe you can.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Audio equipment is great acceptable if:

• It has acceptable measurement, i,e. staying true to their source.

Suggested edit.

 

[welsh]

As Mickey Rourke cries out in Barfly, "Drinks for all my friends !!!"
One of my favorite movies.

When he gave parties, Francis Bacon used to say: “Champagne for my real friends… real pain for my sham friends!”

 

[Head_Unit]

what I am hearing cannot be true.

...because in audio there are two very different kinds of truth:
- Actual physical changes in the sound
- Perceived changes in our brain
We can easily think there are differences, and enjoy them, and probably the right kind of MRI or something would indeed show perceptual differences, even if there are no physical differences at all. This is kinda like my wife saying "oh what a nice car!" and later if I ask "how about that car" she would answer "Oh that is UGLY" even though it was exactly the same car in a different color. Or, to be more cynical, how I could rig up an Apple DAC (whose performance is actually quite decent) dongle inside a beatifully machined case with heavy bricks inside, and many people would rave about its performance and love it to death, whereas they would spit on the original. Aesthetics and other intangible shape our perceptions of things, it's just human. Thus the old phrase "Trust your ears" is fine as far as it goes, except perhaps for your wallet ha ha.

 

[egellings]

The heavy case and bricks give the dongle much needed foundation. Ya gotta have good foundation to get an audiophool's attention.

 

[Head_Unit]

The heavy case and bricks give the dongle much needed foundation. Ya gotta have good foundation to get an audiophool's attention.

I plan to offer a depleted uranium option...

 

[H-713]

IMO, the short answer is both, and there's good reason for that. Of course, my perspective comes from someone designing the equipment, not so much evaluating it as an end user. The listening tests complement the measurements.

1) Measurements are absolutely critical. My hearing is probably less effective than a vacuum-tube based distortion analyzer from 1950 when it comes to measuring THD+N. When it comes to amplifiers, I spend many hours staring at a distortion analyzer and an oscilloscope, making sure it behaves well.

2) Measurements only tell the whole story when they are complete, and they almost never are. That includes Amir's measurements on this site. There is a limited amount of time in the day, and some measurements are extremely time consuming. It is relatively rare, but sometimes a listening test reveals an issue that the first round of measurements don't. For me, this is relatively rare, because I spend a lot of time running abusive measurements to try and find problems, but not all designers do that.

3) Listening tests can be useful in interpreting measurements, particularly with loudspeakers. Sometimes it isn't obvious whether something really needs to be fixed, and a listening test can often make clear whether or not a small dip in the frequency response or a little spike in distortion is worth correcting. Sometimes these things aren't audible enough to be worth the additional crossover parts.

 

[escksu]

I don't quite understand your intent.
I get the feeling that you are trying to convince me that what I am hearing cannot be true.

I have listened to the Bluesound daily for a year and a half as it also serves as a DAC when I watch TV. So my memory has gotten used to the sound of this device.

According to my ears, the Okto (so on top of the fact that the spec sheet of this is much better) sounds a lot more detailed and smooth, for lack of a better word.

Don't need too bothered about what others say, important thing is you. If they believe that its not shown in measurement, then its not true, so be it. Some believe, some don't. Its part and parcel of life.

 

[Weeb Labs]

This strikes me as something of a false dichotomy. In order for measurements to be useful, they must function as a means by which subjective preference can be reliably predicted (they do); otherwise there would be no reason for me to bother with them. Consequently, the notion that there exists an inherent disparity between what I hear and my interpretation of measurements and/or psychoacoustics is contradictory.

 

[audio2design]

This strikes me as something of a false dichotomy. In order for measurements to be useful, they must function as a means by which subjective preference can be reliably predicted; otherwise there would be no reason for me to bother with them. Consequently, the notion that there exists an inherent disparity between what I hear and my interpretation of measurements and/or psychoacoustics is contradictory.

Depends on how you intend to use the measurements. We actually have some good correlations between measurements and preference, i.e. in speaker properties, in types of distortion, etc. However, some people like artificially high levels of bass, some like the false sense of space from noise, some like shelved highs, etc.

If YOU never look into measurements, YOU will never correlate measurements to YOUR preferences.

However, that is just one aspect of what measurements can be used for. Measurements can also tell you if something is real or placebo. I.e. cable direction. Placebo. It can tell you that $20K DAC is nothing but a noise and distortion generator. You may like it, but you are paying for noise and distortion, not technical excellence.

Now acoustics ... wow, this is where measurements really shine and most audiophiles, especially those that shun measurements, are too lazy to learn anything about acoustics, too stubborn to measure their rooms, and too arrogant to accept they have a issues and deal with it. Instead they go and participate in cable and fuse threads.

 

[Rottmannash]

I have a pair his Krell monoblocks.

I can't see any "voicing" in the measurements I've taken of them.

Bet you don't pick them up and move them around much, huh? Aren't they quite heavy?

 

[Weeb Labs]

Depends on how you intend to use the measurements. We actually have some good correlations between measurements and preference, i.e. in speaker properties, in types of distortion, etc. However, some people like artificially high levels of bass, some like the false sense of space from noise, some like shelved highs, etc.

If YOU never look into measurements, YOU will never correlate measurements to YOUR preferences.

You appear to have taken the opposite of my intended message from this post. To clarify, I hold the position that measurements do function as a reliable means by which subjective preference can be predicted.

 

[audio2design]

You appear to have taken the opposite of my intended message from this post. To clarify, I hold the position that measurements do function as a reliable means by which subjective preference can be predicted.

My bad!

 

[RayDunzl]

Bet you don't pick them up and move them around much, huh? Aren't they quite heavy?

They haven't moved since they were set into the rack in 2012 or so.

They aren't light, at least 50+ pounds each, mostly transformer.

 

[Phorize]

I don't quite understand your intent.
I get the feeling that you are trying to convince me that what I am hearing cannot be true.

I have listened to the Bluesound daily for a year and a half as it also serves as a DAC when I watch TV. So my memory has gotten used to the sound of this device.

According to my ears, the Okto (so on top of the fact that the spec sheet of this is much better) sounds a lot more detailed and smooth, for lack of a better word.

Let’s start with first principles. Can we agree that everything in your world, and indeed mine, is only ‘there’ because it presents itself in consciousness? Note ‘presents itself’-you aren’t choosing what comes into consciousness, it just comes and goes.

 

[Wes]

No. Things are there whether or not they present themselves in anyone's consciousness.

And by anyone, I include dolphins.

 

[Weeb Labs]

Here comes quantum mechanics to make everything more complicated.

 

[Descartes]

“….. Don't put value on faulty listening tests. Don't be a victim of marketing. Don't believe in people who don't know what they are doing.” Amir

I could not agree more, audio engineering is based on mathematics and physics and can be measured to demonstrate product quality and accuracy!

It would be great if the Audio manufacturers had to follow minimum sets of rules just like FDA has for pharmaceutical drugs development! At least consumers would know that what they are buying meets a certain standard!

 

[escksu]

“….. Don't put value on faulty listening tests. Don't be a victim of marketing. Don't believe in people who don't know what they are doing.” Amir

I could not agree more, audio engineering is based on mathematics and physics and can be measured to demonstrate product quality and accuracy!

It would be great if the Audio manufacturers had to follow minimum sets of rules just like FDA has for pharmaceutical drugs development! At least consumers would know that what they are buying meets a certain standard!

Audio manufacturers do have to follow certain rules since they are considered electrical/electronic equipment. Eg. FCC class B if they integrate wireless. Safety standards since it an electrical equipment (i believe its under home appliances). They also need to follow tcp/ip or udp protocols etc.

As for specifications, i believe they are also bound by law. They cannot grossly overstate their specs (eg. State 50w as 200w) else it may be considered misleading or false specs.

Even audio cables have rules, esp. on the insulation. Some brands may not get theirs certified but if their audio cables were to be used in buildings (say a concert hall), it must certified (Fire safety standards), cables running in risers, ducts have different certification requirements.

I am not sure about speakers but l think they also fall under electrical/electronic equipment. Just guessing that the MDF used may have to be treated with fore retardant..