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What makes speakers "disappear " and can it be measured?

onion

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Speakers cannot 'disappear'. The human hearing is way to intelligent to be tricked in not sensing the situation. Lucky You to not fall for 'stereo' that easily.

But, with some training, a human may be able to actively ignore the speakers' position. Maybe this happens automatically, if the reward on that side of an interpretation is higher than a sober detection of the world as it really is? As with the movies, an emotional involvement helps so much to come over the bland representation on the flat screen as such. The media shall trigger imagination. It is an artform to do so.

Please don't see Yourselves as physiological machinery, that shall be tricked like Pawlow's guinea pigs--by Yourself. :D

(this You didn't expect, but it is the plain truth)
Yeah speakers can disappear and fool human hearing. You just need an appropriately produced recording and cross-talk cancellation at the contralateral ear.

Simples
 

fineMen

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Yeah speakers can disappear and fool human hearing. You just need an appropriately produced recording and cross-talk cancellation at the contralateral ear.

Simples
Then please show me. I'm only afraid You forgot?
 

dualazmak

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Have my post #287 re-awaken this thread from hibernation?
Are all of you fully awake now and ready for objective scientific discussion?

My post #287 is just intended to share my primitive but reliable "objective high-precision measurement methods" for assessment and perfect adjustment of time alignment throughout the multiple SP drivers (5-way 10-channel in my case) in multichannel multi-way multi-driver multi-amplifier stereo project.
 
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BrokenEnglishGuy

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The time alignment sounds very nice
Wonder if one day that tool will be easier to setup, i mean in the typical passive - > integrated power amp
 

dualazmak

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The time alignment sounds very nice
Wonder if one day that tool will be easier to setup, i mean in the typical passive - > integrated power amp

Thank you for your encouraging comment.

The methods shared in my post #287 and in my project thread can be easily applied even in single DAC - single integrated amp system, if you would be using digital audio player like JRiver together with DSP software like EKIO. Of course you need an audio interface and a measurement microphone, though.

I actually applied this method in my office desktop PC audio system upstairs (having DSP XO/EQ EKIO in PC for precision group delay control) with the reasonably priced Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 THX Certified Computer Speaker and a small stereo DAC KORG DS-DAC-10; the result was really amazing much exceeding my expectations.
 

BenB

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Did my post #287 awaken this thread from hibernation?
Are all of you fully awake now and ready for objective scientific discussion?

My post #287 is just intended to share my primitive but reliable "objective high-precision measurement methods" for assessment and perfect adjustment of time alignment throughout the multiple SP drivers (5-way 10-channel in my case) in multichannel multi-way multi-driver multi-amplifier stereo project.

An objective scientific discussion? Are your providing full bandwidth phase (or group delay) AND magnitude plots with and without time alignment? Are you providing ABX trial reports from numerous participants?
 

ernestcarl

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Has anyone ever tried this setup? Does it work? View attachment 188464

I can quickly switch to it... got a MCH setup where I can switch and re-route the mix to get pure LR stereo sent to the horizontally rotatable side surrounds of my desk. It sounds awesome! -- somewhat in-your-head type, yet it's also an all around, above and behind you kind of sensation. It isn't quite like headphones since the sound "bubble" or "sphere" is quite big and feels like it extends well beyond your physical body and outstretched arms.

Coaxial monitors are high-passed at 80 Hz and fully (BM) bass managed with very, very minimal EQ as you can see in the attached graph comparison.
 

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dualazmak

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An objective scientific discussion? Are your providing full bandwidth phase (or group delay) AND magnitude plots with and without time alignment? Are you providing ABX trial reports from numerous participants?

Have you carefully read through my posts on my project thread?

- Precision measurement and adjustment of time alignment for speaker (SP) units: Part-1_ Precision pulse wave matching method: #493
- Precision measurement and adjustment of time alignment for speaker (SP) units: Part-2_ Energy peak matching method: #494
- Precision measurement and adjustment of time alignment for speaker (SP) units: Part-3_ Precision single sine wave matching method in 0.1 msec accuracy: #504, #507, #520

We actually did quasi-ABX comparisons; the exact and strict ABX tests cannot be performed in my home audio setup, though.

My point here is that perfect time alignment would be "one of" the important factors for disappearance of SPs...
 

IPunchCholla

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I don’t know that perfection or even marginal time alignment is important. My room is not even a square or rectangle. More of a small L shape being 4ish meters b 5ish with a 2x3 meter leg. The ceiling is slanted. My speakers are shifted well left of canter in terms of their center point and my listening position is angled about 30 degrees relative to the front wall. They get the speakers to sound even, I am panning either left speaker contributing 55% relative to the rights 100%

This weekend I began acoustically treating the room using .5x1.5m 100mm thick acoustic panels. I then used a Umik-1 and REW to profile my LP and create an EQ. Just doing that created. Pretty good sonic stage. It is about 10 degrees wider than my speakers and the singer is clearly located between the speakers. The speakers are pretty (but not totally) transparent.

Given the room and speaker position, I don’t think timing is play a huge role. I wonder how much is simply do to a good flat frequency response from the speakers creating a 1db/octave falloff across as much of the audible range as possible (mine are currently going from about 45 to 14k staying within around +- 3dB with eq) combined with low distortion (mine is below the noise floor except bass below 85Hz).

Could it be as simple as level FR, low distortion, speakers 60 degrees apart, equally loud from the LP?
 

dualazmak

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As shared in my post #508 on my project thread, my listening room and furniture alignment are not in fully symmetrical, and I also have some asymmetric low-level sound reflection/reverberation as shared in my post #498. Even in this home audio listening environment, the positive contribution of the perfect time alignment to the "SP disappearance" was/is really amazing much exceeding our (my wife and me) expectations.

We were really surprised that the fine 0.3 msec time alignment (perfection) between woofer and mid-range squawker greatly improved the total sound quality including the disappearance of SPs. 

I would highly recommend you at least to try time alignment measurements and adjustments in 0.1 msec precision in your environment too. You may of course apply the method for time alignment tuning not only for multiple SP drivers, but also for L and R group time alignment. Of course I cannot guarantee the positive results though, however, since I do not know the actual physical setup of your audio system and listening environments.
 

IPunchCholla

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As shared in my post #508 on my project thread, my listening room and furniture alignment are not in fully symmetrical, and I also have some asymmetric low-level sound reflection/reverberation as shared in my post #498. Even in this home audio listening environment, the positive contribution of the perfect time alignment to the "SP disappearance" was/is really amazing much exceeding our (my wife and me) expectations.

We were really surprised that the fine 0.3 msec time alignment (perfection) between woofer and mid-range squawker greatly improved the total sound quality including the disappearance of SPs. 

I would highly recommend you at least to try time alignment measurements and adjustments in 0.1 msec precision in your environment too. You may of course apply the method for time alignment tuning not only for multiple SP drivers, but also for L and R group time alignment. Of course I cannot guarantee the positive results though, however, since I do not know the actual physical setup of your audio system and listening environments.
Maybe. Once I finish acoustically treating my room, if my speakers aren’t transparent enough, and after I get new speakers, since mine are 30 years old and I didn’t not even know what they are with any detail. But honestly, this seems like throwing more gadgets and money into the chain for what is likely pretty marginal improvement, objectively.

In my case, it would likely at a minimum mean switching computer platforms (along with the knock-on effects). Adding yet another device in the audio chain, and likely, to make it worthwhile, getting new speakers and an amp to run every driver independently.

So I’ll treat acoustics, maybe measure my drivers, and listen to music seemingly coming out of the air in front of me even though the signals can’t possibly be time-aligned to such a degree and the sound waves are arriving out of phase, logically.
 

pozz

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The main factor for disappearing speakers is a higher proportion of reverberant sound. The more diffuse the soundfield, the less directional information you pick up.
 

IPunchCholla

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Also, as I am sit-in there at my desk, I am well outside the directionality of my left speaker, meaning the FR is way less than ideal. I can clearly here both speakers. If I roll backwards in my chair about 3 feet, I reenter the cone of good LR and the voice that was coming out of both speakers shifts to floating a few feet in front of me. I really think, FR (meaning speaker and speaker room interaction) and low distortion are the vast chunk of this. I agree that reverb also helps with the illusion.
 

dshreter

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I can’t back this up scientifically, but I think the phenomenon of speakers “disappearing” is related to hearing sufficient direct sound and stereo separation that the sound is apparently between the speakers. As reflected sound increases, the sound field becomes a more diffuse wall of sound and any central image less distinct.

I don’t think the effect is typically due to speaker distortion that causes you to locate the speaker in space as much as a weak center image.

Increasing direct vs reflected sound and having good frequency response off axis should both help achieve the effect.
 

dualazmak

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Maybe. Once I finish acoustically treating my room, if my speakers aren’t transparent enough, and after I get new speakers, since mine are 30 years old and I didn’t not even know what they are with any detail. But honestly, this seems like throwing more gadgets and money into the chain for what is likely pretty marginal improvement, objectively.

In my case, it would likely at a minimum mean switching computer platforms (along with the knock-on effects). Adding yet another device in the audio chain, and likely, to make it worthwhile, getting new speakers and an amp to run every driver independently.

So I’ll treat acoustics, maybe measure my drivers, and listen to music seemingly coming out of the air in front of me even though the signals can’t possibly be time-aligned to such a degree and the sound waves are arriving out of phase, logically.

I understand your stance quite well since my "policy and strategy" in multichannel multi-amplifier project are/were almost similar to yours. The "perfect time alignment" should be tried at the final stage of your project, just like I did it in my project.

Just for your reference, you may find my "pre-project history and background" in these posts; #030, #128, #178, #015(remote thread).

Furthermore, my main SPs are also rather old ones, about 40 years old YAMAHA NS-1000 and drivers. I know the midrange Be-squawkers and high-range Be-tweeters are still having world top-class specs and performances.

As for the "aged" woofer, YAMAHA 30 cm cone JA-3058, however, I have been a little bit worried about the possible tired performances at present, and this worry encouraged me to fully measure the transient characteristics of my JA-3058 as shared in my post #495 and #497. As the results, I was again really impressed by the still-really-amazing transient characteristics/performances of this old 30 cm woofer.

It took almost three years until I could fully establish multichannel multi-way multi-driver multi-amplifier stereo audio setup with NS-1000's woofers, Be-squawkers, Be-tweeters, plus sub-woofers YST-SW1000 and super-tweeters FOSTEX T924A. (You may find the hyperlink index for my project thread here and here.)

Until very recently, until the end of last year 2021, I was really satisfied with the total sound quality, including fairly nice disappearance of SPs, with my almost completed multichannel multi-amplifier setup and configuration, with no group delay (no time alignment) control. Only last month, in January this year, I carefully considered and planned trying the time alignment measurements and controls using my own primitive but reliable method "with little expectation" for further improvement in total sound quality.

As shared in my post #520 on the project thread, I am now very happy in sharing that "Perfect (0.1 msec precision) time alignment of all the SP drivers greatly contributes to further amazing disappearance of SPs, tightness and cleanliness of the sound, and superior 3D sound stage."

In any way, I do hope much good luck in your multichannel multi-amplifier setup, and you would please try "perfect time alignment" all over of your SP drivers in the final stage of your project.
 
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Barry_Sound

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I can quickly switch to it... got a MCH setup where I can switch and re-route the mix to get pure LR stereo sent to the horizontally rotatable side surrounds of my desk. It sounds awesome! -- somewhat in-your-head type, yet it's also an all around, above and behind you kind of sensation. It isn't quite like headphones since the sound "bubble" or "sphere" is quite big and feels like it extends well beyond your physical body and outstretched arms.

Coaxial monitors are high-passed at 80 Hz and fully (BM) bass managed with very, very minimal EQ as you can see in the attached graph comparison.
I wonder why this "headphone style" configuration never gets mentioned in speaker placement. In theory it should give you perfect stereo and eliminate any room effects.
 
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