What makes speakers "disappear " and can it be measured?

[Yogi]

Hi Folks,
my two cents to this interesting conversations are.... only if the music is good mastered the loudspeaker disapear

 

[ernestcarl]

the topic rises an instresting psychoacoustic topic, though. since it sugests that the phantom center of a reverbant room, will be diferent from a treated one.

I would think so, too.

With regards to that video you posted, I have actually played around with very simple volume and delay compensations for the different seating positions along my couch since there is only one listener most of the time. The effect is so good that I've made permanent presets in my DSP chain for when I sit at the extreme corner left/right edges of my couch. Interestingly, I have to do the timing offsets manually as the ones suggested by REW perceptually sound incorrect/non-optimal to my ears.

 

[tomtoo]

I agree that there are bigger issues to adress, having perfectly symmetric rooms is one for sure. Matching can be important though especially in crossover design. I have measured some cheap but good sounding cone tweeters and matching gives better crossover consistency.

View attachment 147764

Could you give me some more information about this tweeters? Its OT, so a message would be great.

 

[Count Arthur]

What makes speakers "disappear " and can it be measured?

Speaker theives, and yes:

 

[tuga]

What makes speakers "disappear " and can it be measured?

Speaker theives, and yes:

Is that Lou Reed in the centre? Who would have thought...

 

[dasdoing]

I would think so, too.

With regards to that video you posted, I have actually played around with very simple volume and delay compensations for the different seating positions along my couch since there is only one listener most of the time. The effect is so good that I've made permanent presets in my DSP chain for when I sit at the extreme corner left/right edges of my couch. Interestingly, I have to do the timing offsets manually as the ones suggested by REW perceptually sound incorrect/non-optimal to my ears.

that's someting I sure would have done, too...if I hadn't the possibility to keep my head in the sweet spot even with variyng positions. I basicly have a 180 degree zone where I can put my feet on while keeping head in the spot lol

Hi Folks,
my two cents to this interesting conversations are.... only if the music is good mastered the loudspeaker disapear

I think you are confusing things here. there is a mixing teqnique called LCR where you basicly have only 3 panning positions where you put instuments

 

[dualazmak]

I hope this interesting thread is still alive and active.

Just for your reference, today I wrote my post here entitled "Perfect (0.1 msec precision) time alignment of all the SP drivers greatly contributes to amazing disappearance of SPs, tightness and cleanliness of the sound, and superior 3D sound stage." on my multichannel multi-way multi-driver multi-amplifier (with no LCR network) project thread.

 

[valerianf]

"when the phases match the speakers disapear"
With passive speakers the crossover may need to be redesigned.
The difference is obvious when the phase is properly adjusted.

 

[fineMen]

I noticed that some speakers just disappear and it feels like the sound appears out of thin air, and others don't feel like that at all, and the sound is just coming out of 2 speakers.
What makes speakers "disappear" and can it be measured?

Speakers cannot 'disappear'. The human hearing is way to intelligent to be tricked in not sensing the situation. Lucky You to not fall for 'stereo' that easily.

But, with some training, a human may be able to actively ignore the speakers' position. Maybe this happens automatically, if the reward on that side of an interpretation is higher than a sober detection of the world as it really is? As with the movies, an emotional involvement helps so much to come over the bland representation on the flat screen as such. The media shall trigger imagination. It is an artform to do so.

Please don't see Yourselves as physiological machinery, that shall be tricked like Pawlow's guinea pigs--by Yourself.

(this You didn't expect, but it is the plain truth)

 

[Frgirard]

Speakers cannot 'disappear'. The human hearing is way to intelligent to be tricked in not sensing the situation. Lucky You to not fall for 'stereo' that easily.

But, with some training, a human may be able to actively ignore the speakers' position. Maybe this happens automatically, if the reward on that side of an interpretation is higher than a sober detection of the world as it really is? As with the movies, an emotional involvement helps so much to come over the bland representation on the flat screen as such. The media shall trigger imagination. It is an artform to do so.

Please don't see Yourselves as physiological machinery, that shall be tricked like Pawlow's guinea pigs--by Yourself.

(this You didn't expect, but it is the plain truth)

your thing is complicated. Easier to close your eyes or listen in the dark.

 

[fineMen]

your thing is complicated. Easier to ...

... and if I now start to nod, my head comes into a new position, and my naturally trained hearing will re-evaluate the sound field, compare the cues, hence empower me to point to the speakers' position. The more 'golden' my ears, the less stereo. (Seems to contradict high-end claims, apologies.)

Finally, what is 'complicated' with being emotionally involved while listening? Not that one should shed tears, but if music IS interesting, what is wrong with that?

(nice topic indeed)

 

[Frgirard]

... and if I now start to nod, my head comes into a new position, and my naturally trained hearing will re-evaluate the sound field, compare the cues, hence empower me to point to the speakers' position. The more 'golden' my ears, the less stereo. (Seems to contradict high-end claims, apologies.)

Finally, what is 'complicated' with being emotionally involved while listening? Not that one should shed tears, but if music IS interesting, what is wrong with that?

(nice topic indeed)

That you speak for your personal case which has nothing universal to see nothing galactic

 

[fineMen]

That you speak for your personal case which has nothing universal to see nothing galactic

I knew my contribution would sound greek to You.

A stereophile calls out: "Give me something to really trick myself." And then she complains about not being tricked effortlessly. Otherworldish mindset?

 

[Frgirard]

The sound and the music are two world. i can "vibrate" with a bad speaker like that https://www.cdiscount.com/high-tech...Z8UR3HSk0E2O9dtUwZu1ouWeowsVdZERoCvwMQAvD_BwE
as the 99 % on this planet.

we the majority don't need prosthetics for emotional involvement

 

[fineMen]

The sound and the music are two world. ...
we the majority don't need prosthetics for emotional involvement

Abbreviate 'emotional involvement' to 'interest'. Then music is an imaginary structure in sound. The prosthesis allows us, as listeners to travel in space and time. I like it, as I didn't invent an other tool yet to do so. Maybe we humans develop natural (?) means to travel in the future.

 

[Reed]

A friend who I hadn’t seen in a couple of years recently flew out for a visit. He listens to an Alexa in his house and whatever is in his truck. He hadn’t listened to a good stereo in over 20 years. I had him listen to my Genelecs with Dirac. After three tracks he looked at me and said “The sound isn’t coming from the speakers. How does it do that?” He‘s certainly the definition of a casual, passive listener but he immediately got the concept.

 

[fineMen]

He‘s certainly the definition of a casual, passive listener but he immediately got the concept.

Same with me in a concert. If the music is interesting, I forget where it comes from. If it's boring, I seek out where to throw the tomatoes.

A good stereo gives more reward for believing the presentation. Man, as a fun-seeking animal, is going to accept this interpretation, rather than to think of the speakers as speakers. Just my hypothesis. I trust in non-critical listening--when it comes to stereo.

 

[Shiva]

Anyone mention Audio Physic in this thread? Visiting one of my favorite Audio shops years ago, Audio Physic Tempo 3's were playing in one of the rooms. They completely disappeared within the sound field, like no other speaker I had heard prior. I was so impressed with that, that I bought a pair, though mine came from Audiogon. They were $3600 bucks on the showroom floor. Too rich for my blood at the time.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

make the speakers disappear it's easily when the speaker interact properly with the room
pd: You cannot beat a coaxial here

 

[Barry_Sound]

Has anyone ever tried this setup? Does it work?