Vintage Yamaha NS-1000M or Linkwitz Speaker System

[FrantzM]

Hi

I have been waiting too long for the perfect room in which to put an audio system. I had one, a very good one and with what I know now or better: A clear conscience of my ignorance, that room would have served me well.
I am in need of a true full range 2-channel Audio System. I have a very satisfying HT, the speakers, for music are lacking: My headphones constantly remind me of that.
I am on the cusp of building a Linkwitz LX-Mini. I have a decent 8-channel amp and the miniDSP 4 x10. I also have my father last audio system, based around Yamaha components. These are almost 40 years old ( Yamaha CA-2010, Yamaha TOL YP TT, Cassette deck and even a CT-1010 Tuner!)... We had sold the NS-1000 ,Not the "M:,version, the one with the beautiful piano-like woodwork_
I am vacillating between the LX Mini +2 , which I would build and a used pair of Yamaha NS-1000 M... In some ways rebuilding a system we had at home when I was a teenager but with better understanding of Audio reproduction and it would be helped by DSP'd subwoofers

I want ultimately full range and if it weren't for my too-small room, would have gone sight unseen, toward the LX 521.4... The LX Mini would be upgraded to a full Mini +2. There is pull toward the Linkwitz but am not married to it , nor to the Yamaha system for that matter...I believe the Yamaha to be competitive in many respects to today's better speakers..I have looked at the measurements and they seem good. I may have to replace some crossover parts but ... Operative words is "believe".

What do you think? I know these are different animals but I am eclectic and am a bit tired of headphones...

 

[jeffbook]

What are your room dimensions and what are the power specs for your 8 channel amp?

 

[fredoamigo]

ah my friend Igor Kirkwood might be able to tell you about the NS1000 it's an unconditional fan and his NS1000 based installation is amazing

 

[FrantzM]

What are your room dimensions and what are the power specs for your 8 channel amp?

6 x 4 x 2.75 ( L x W x H in meters)
175 / ch all channels driven @ 8 ohms

 

[jeffbook]

Your room isn't really that small. Linkwitz recommended a room size greater than 22 sq meters and a height greater than 8 feet for the LX521 and your room exceeds these dimensions . Your power amp will easily drive an LX-mini+2 or even an LXStudio system. You have the miniDSP system you need. My room is 22 sq meters with a height of 7.67 ft and the LXmini with Orion Peerless dipole woofers have sufficient output for realistic sound pressure levels in my room.

Before I built my first Linkwitz system (Orion) in 2003, I had another well regarded 1970 vintage speaker system in the form of the Dalhquist DQ-10 speakers. When I auditioned the Orion speaker at Linkwitz's home in 2002, there was no question of replacing the DQ10 with the Orion. When I heard the LXmini and the LX521 at RMAF in 2015, I knew that both of these exceeded the Orion's performance. So I built the LXmini and integrated the Orion bass modules. I have no experience with the Yamaha, but I can highly recommend the LXmini, especially with the +2 sub option.

 

[Igor Kirkwood]

ah my friend Igor Kirkwood might be able to tell you about the NS1000 it's an unconditional fan and his NS1000 based installation is amazing

Yes of course the Yamaha NS 1000 is a good speaker .
Floyd Toole says about Yamaha NS-1000
"Yes, the NS1000 was too bright, due to the incorrect spectral balance, not the metal diaphragms - they were remarkably good, especially at the time. They had to be spectrally tilted - slight increase in bass, treble cut. That said, they were also superbly designed"
It's strange in USA you know only about the speaker Yamaha NS-1000 of 1974 and not the Yamaha NS-1000x of 1984 is better, especially the 12 inches boomer in carbon (in paper for the 1974).
An othe question the Yamaha NS-1000 must be at 40 cm of a wall. If not it sounds too bright.

I give you Fredoamigo the curves of my Yamaha NS-1000x used for surrounds loodspeakers in a very bad position (near celling) because not enough distance for listening person. Without any EQ

And the same Yamaha NS-1000x with EQ calculate in QSC 110 f by Jean-Luc Ohl my mesuring engineer

Conclusion: you can get the best with a passive Yamaha NS-1000x but be carreful for the position. If bad you must correct : you can change the level of the medium and the tweeter. Or wit EQ of course

Notice the distance of measure is 2,40 meter with the MMM method

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I would not qualify the Siegfried Linkwitz designs of being "uncomplicated". They are but the complexity is hidden somewhat. one doesn't have to fully understand the how and why to enjoy these products. Follow the instructions and you are 90% there' For the rest ask the experts on the Internet. There are some here at ASR and the OPLUG. Bona fide experts.
If I were to go toward the Yamaha. I may not try to open it up to use active crossover. Most likely use the CA 2010 with digital front end. Cross over at 80 Hz and send the bass to a trio of sealed (Parts Express) DIY subs, in the Interim I would use my trio of ported and cheap Parts Express subwoofers... in a Geddes-type multi-sub. I may eventually go the active route but ... it seems to require knowledge I don't possess, yet.

Jeff and Igor have made the decision even more difficult... I hate them equally

 

[jeffbook]

Well, just trying to help..... Good luck with your decision!

 

[Igor Kirkwood]

FrantzM . In front I use an active Yamaha, but here it's the passive version of 1984 with mesurement....

The "more" is a simple IIR EQ by the QSC processor, but you can use olso a MiniSDP.... not so difficult

 

[FrantzM]

Well, just trying to help..... Good luck with your decision!

And it is much appreciated...
Jokes are often lost in the Internet.

 

[gene_stl]

In addition to the Toole reference above you can find the Martin Collums statement about Yamaha Be drivers that in both the tweeter and midrange chapters of his seventies classic engineering text "High Performance Loudspeakers" words to the effect that they were the lowest distortion (mid range and tweeters respectively) that he had ever measured. Published in 1977.

Troels Gravesen thinks enough of them that he designed a high end, high priced crossover to
"improve" them. For what it costs you could tri amp them. But he does speak well of them.

The Spin O Ramas in Dr. Toole's book, on page 453, show they would be excellent, even by todays standards.

Of course like @Igor Kirkwood I am rather prejudiced.
Tri Amped with a powered sub they would be difficult to beat.

I was an early fan of the late great Sigfried Linkwitz. (famous 1976 J AES article)

You are likely to be very happy with either system. Even without Be drivers the Linkwitz system is a four way and multi amped. You would have to be trying to make it sound bad.

 

[dualazmak]

Hello FranzM and friends here,

Just for your info and interests,

I am still using very excellent YAMAHA NS-1000 (not NS-1000M), YST-SW1000 (sub-woofer) and FOSTEX T925A (super tweeter) in my multichannel project entitled "Multi-Channel, Multi-Amplifier Audio System Using Software Crossover and Multichannel-DAC";
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/multi-channel-multi-amplifier-audio-system-using-software-crossover-and-multichannel-dac.12489/

Your visit (FranzM already kindly visited today, thanks!) and participation in my thread will be much welcome...

 

[dualazmak]

Hello friends,

Just for your info, I posted here about the comparison between NS-1000 (which I am using) and NS-1000M, with several links.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Am I correct to assume that the caps in an used NS-1000M will need to be replaced? What about the drivers? How easy are they to come by? I am running the numbers and the Yamaha projects while feasible is , in fact, similar in outlay. In the meantime, the CA-2010 is developing some noise on the right channel ... It won't be sold.
The Yamaha is bandwidth limited as compared to the LX 521.4 .. To become full range , a NS-1000M will require subwoofers and DSP. Total cash outlay may become high.
Those are the elements , I am working on, your suggestions, experiences, opinion are much needed.

 

[dualazmak]

Hello FranzM,

Thank you for your recent visit at my thread entitled "Multi-Channel, Multi-Amplifier Audio System Using Software Crossover and Multichannel-DAC".

Since I do not fully understand what gears you would need to add in your plan, just for your reference, let me share my status in my project, before and after.

Prior to the start of my current multi-channel project, I already had the following;
- Audio dedicated Windows 10 Pro PC with Roon and JRiver MC
- OPPO SONICA DAC
- ACCUPHASE E-460 Integrated Amplifier
- renovated NS-1000: 3 direct SP terminals for WO, SQ and TW; cabinet attenuators bypassed; outer LC-Network+attenuator box
- two (L&R) of sub-woofer YAMAHA YST-SW1000
- two (L&R) of super tweeter FOSTEX T925A

In order to complete and establish the current multi-channel project, therefore, I need to add/purchase;
- Software crossover EKIO; IIR filters in 192kHz 24bit, unlimited I/O channels (already purchased)
- 8-channel DAC, OKTO DAC8PRO (already purchased)
- 8-channel multi-channel amplifier(s) (in the process of trials and final decision)
- additional XLR cables, SP cables

Consequently, at least in my case, the additional cost/budget would be not so big, but I can surely establish full digital stereo 5-way 10-channel multi-channel audio system with these gears, and the total system performance and functionalities would be about the same (or better?) as we may establish with the extraordinary expensive TRINNOV ALTITUDE 32 which is also working in 192 kHz 24bit.

If you have some DIY experience including soldering, it should be easy for you to remove the LC-network of the NS-1000M (or NS-1000), install two new SP terminals, and bypass the cabinet attenuators.

Of course, it should be much easier and straight-forward if you would prefer to go with Linkwitz LX-mini and related gears without spending much time on DIY work.... I have never tried and listened to Linkwitz LX-mini, so have no idea of sound quality comparison between NS-1000+YST-SW1000+T925A vs. Linkwitz LX-mini.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

I would say that yamaha is less fussy in terms of installation. Linkwitz systems need way more space to operate correctly. I have my yamahas ns1000m right next to the wall, so the rest of the room is useable. Yamahas need stands though. 30-40cm (12-15 inches) will do. I used ns1000m in near field. With a bit of correction a lot of fun. If you want to go active make a plate plug instead of the crossover using dimension from Troel's website and make connectors on drivers such molex so you can easily go active / passive. And then something like dbx pa2 with mchannel power amp will do the rest.

 

[restorer-john]

What about the drivers? How easy are they to come by? I am running the numbers and the Yamaha projects while feasible is , in fact, similar in outlay. In the meantime, the CA-2010 is developing some noise on the right channel ... It won't be sold.

Drivers are available, but only on the secondary market. Yamaha no longer sells individual drivers AFAIK. I remember buying one of the last NS-1000 Be tweeters back in around 2000 and it took forever to get from Japan. Back then it was about AU$195. We still have it as a NOS spare.

The Be mids and tweeters are fine if not touched, cleaned or generally messed with. Some mids fracture around the dome edge. They are, after all ranging in age from 46 years (the oldest) to 26 years (the youngest).

The NS1000 woofers are an ongoing problem in terms of corrosion of the adhesive (magnet/pole pieces). The only woofers that won't fail are the ones that have been pulled down, cleaned of corrosion and adhesive and professionally re positioned and affixed. It is not a job for the faint hearted.

You should stop using the CA-2010 immediately and pursue repairing it. It's a DC coupled amplifier and noise in one channel is an indication that attention is needed. You do not want to be rebuilding it, trying to find unobtanium and costly FETs due to a failure event that could have been avoided.

Minor problems in amplifiers are like toothache. You can ignore it and hope it goes away, but if you do, it will get really expensive and painful. Teeth don't repair themselves and neither do amplifiers.

 

[FrantzM]

Thanks John

I will send it to a Yamaha repair shop in FLorida for repair... wasn't using it that much anyway ... will post later'

 

[dualazmak]

Hello FrantzM,

Will you send whole NS-1000M to the repair shop, or send the detached driver(s) to the shop?

In case if you will send whole NS-1000M and if you would decide to go into multi-channel multi-amplifier(s) system with NS-1000M, then you may ask the repair shop to remove the LC-Network, install the three new SP terminals directly connected to Woofer, Be-Squawker and Be-Tweeter, and to bypass the two attenuators. I also recommend you to change all the internal wires to thicker AWG12 SP cable.

Please note that YAMAHA deliberately connected to Be-Tweeters invert at the SP terminal of Be-TW, and this is the exactly fine and right connection in terms of phase matching and 3D sound perspectives.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Hello FrantzM,

Will you send whole NS-1000M to the repair shop, or send the detached driver(s) to the shop?

I think he wants to send his Yamaha amplifier CA-2010 for repair.