What is it about McIntosh?

[VintageFlanker]

Is there a defensible reason a chip board Ncore won’t last as long as my MC2100? We don’t have 20 years of history with Ncore amps, do we? Are all chip amps made with the same durability?

Ncore are not chip-based amps. Their durability is uncertain mainly because of SMPS from Hypex.

 

[Willem]

I am still perfectly happy with my old refurbished Quad power amps (Q606-2 and late model Q405-2, plus a retired Q303), but if someone offered me a free trade-in to some Ncores, I would not hesitate. After all, all of these are just a straight wire with gain, and Ncores offer somewhat better measured performance for lower power consumption in an age when reducing energy consumption makes economic and ecological sense.

 

[Mashcky]

Ncore are not chip-based amps. Their durability is uncertain mainly because of SMPS from Hypex.

Thanks, I used the wrong lingo here. I was trying to refer to all amps that are, say, mostly printed on a board without easily replaceable components.

So the main concern is that Ncore either isn’t around or no longer produces replacement boards?

 

[MediumRare]

With genuine curiosity, what is behind these arguments? Is there a defensible reason a chip board Ncore won’t last as long as my MC2100? We don’t have 20 years of history with Ncore amps, do we? Are all chip amps made with the same durability? I see a lot of equivocating high end class D with cheap chip amps in these arguments. Is this correct?

Not trying to stir controversy here — I’m actually planning on selling my 50 year old McIntosh for 8 channels of Ncore with over double the power, three times the efficiency, and probably one-quarter the weight. Is this a bad idea? Same goes for my MX117 pre-amp; it can almost be exchanged dollar-for-dollar for an Okto DAC8.

If these newer units survive, and I don’t yet know why they wouldn’t, they can depreciate to $0.00 as long as tunes still come out the way they did when I bought them.

I don’t know if they will or not, but the thread is about McIntosh. The point is that it does retain considerable value.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

With genuine curiosity, what is behind these arguments? Is there a defensible reason a chip board Ncore won’t last as long as my MC2100? We don’t have 20 years of history with Ncore amps, do we? Are all chip amps made with the same durability? I see a lot of equivocating high end class D with cheap chip amps in these arguments. Is this correct?

Not trying to stir controversy here — I’m actually planning on selling my 50 year old McIntosh for 8 channels of Ncore with over double the power, three times the efficiency, and probably one-quarter the weight. Is this a bad idea? Same goes for my MX117 pre-amp; it can almost be exchanged dollar-for-dollar for an Okto DAC8.

If these newer units survive, and I don’t yet know why they wouldn’t, they can depreciate to $0.00 as long as tunes still come out the way they did when I bought them.

Its not the silicon chips on Ncore amps which is likely to fail, but the certainty that the electrolytic capacitors will fail in time, especially given the relatively harsh operating conditions they have to work under. The deal killer of a problem is that the Ncore modules are (like the majority of current electronics) not repairable. Even if one could get replacements for the failed parts (a huge if), getting a schematic from the manufacturer is not going to happen, and even then, the only real option for repair is outright replacement of the module - if a replacement is available - in 20 years? - forget about that!

In contrast to that, tube gear - including all the way before the 1960s - can be repaired, and repaired easily. Schematics are readily available on the internet and in the case of McIntosh, they still support their old gear, no matter how old. Parts such as electrolytic capacitors are readily available and easily replaced. I have no doubt that one could still purchase an output transformer for an MC240 from McIntosh to this day, although things like transformers essentially last forever.

Does that scenario sound likely with an Ncore amplifier (or any current electronics) in 20+ years, let alone 50+ years?

Resale values reflect that reality.

 

[TimF]

Replacement parts for humans can be hard to obtain and costly.

 

[Kegemusha]

But an Ncore is not so expensive as a McIntosh, I had my build PC for 10 years now and still working, if something crashes I change the MBoard, same for an Ncore, or keep the box and change the inside parts, if an Ncore last 10 years I will be happy.
I have a smsl class D amp, 8 years now and still running cost me 80£.

And the stand by power consumtion of an McIntosh 240 for example, multiply that for 10 years or 30 years and you will see the cost.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

But an Ncore is not so expensive as a McIntosh, I had my build PC for 10 years now and still working, if something crashes I change the MBoard, same for an Ncore, or keep the box and change the inside parts, if an Ncore last 10 years I will be happy.
I have a smsl class D amp, 8 years now and still running cost me 80£.

And the stand by power consumtion of an McIntosh 240 for example, multiply that for 10 years or 30 years and you will see the cost.

Nobody is forcing you to purchase McIntosh or anything else. You purchase what makes sense to you. On the other hand, its nobody's place to question what others buying decisions are. As for power consumption, I've seen more than one example of people I know who are extremely 'green-aware' yet they drive big ass, gas-guzzling SUVs, with no sense of the irony.

 

[Kegemusha]

I know that, but somone brought the Ncore in, and is no comparision, totally diferent price point, so if Ncore dont last 10 years, can not be a big thing, at least for me.

 

[preload]

Exactly. W

I don’t know if they will or not, but the thread is about McIntosh. The point is that it does retain considerable value.

Exactly. If you end up selling your McIntosh gear, the depreciation hit isn't that bad. This is especially true if buying used. So while people balk at McIntosh pricing, the total cost of ownership is actually comparatively low. The two McIntosh amps I've owned only cost me a few hundred $ to be able to enjoy them for several years. Can the same be said for the lesser known brand equipment that measure exceptionally well but don't have the same cache? To be fair, benchmark equipment also have pretty good resale so long as they're a current model. But then Benchmark also has some cache as well.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Exactly. W

Exactly. If you end up selling your McIntosh gear, the depreciation hit isn't that bad.

Actually in the case of my McIntosh gear which was manufactured around 1962, the current value is a bit higher than when the gear was brand new, adjusting for inflation.

 

[Willem]

It is essentially about discrete off the shelve components in any brand of gear versus more integrated modern stuff. My Quad amps have all been refurbished and when done the service engineer gave me a bag of all the old components (his policy was to replace every component). Modern gear does not allow this but has many advantages in return.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

It is essentially about discrete off the shelve components in any brand of gear versus more integrated modern stuff. My Quad amps have all been refurbished and when done the service engineer gave me a bag of all the old components (his policy was to replace every component). Modern gear does not allow this but has many advantages in return.

That depends on what you mean by 'many advantages'. What I find as a huge advantage might be a huge disadvantage to you and vice versa. To each their own.

 

[Objectivist01]

Try selling your ncore in 20 years and let me know how much you get for it. My MA6900 is worth what I paid for it 20 years ago. I'd have to buy 2 Benchmarks (that's $6,000 so you don't need to look it up) to have the same power, but then I'd have no preamp.

Oh, and let me know if you can hear the difference between 0.005% and 0.001% distortion on 400 watt peaks. Oh wait, the Benchmark in bridged mono can't do that.

Why would I want to sell the ncore if that's objectively perfect? Also selling value is directly dependent on the engineering value. Many objectively bad audio devices like atc scm speakers have high resale value. Also don't say that you can sell the macintosh for the same price you bought. The 6000$ performance of macintosh can be had for 1000 bucks ncore. After 20 years I would sell the ncore for 100 bucks. You would sell the macintosh for say 2k. Still you lost more than me.

 

[Willem]

That depends on what you mean by 'many advantages'.

All of this only applies to power amplifiers. Tuners and pre-amplifiers are obsolete technology in the modern digital age. And power amplifiers are a solved problem because almost all of them perform better than human hearing. What remains is reliability and value for money on the one hand, and electricity consumption on the other. Here the modern class D power amps are hard to beat.

 

[MediumRare]

Why would I want to sell the ncore if that's objectively perfect? Also selling value is directly dependent on the engineering value. Many objectively bad audio devices like atc scm speakers have high resale value. Also don't say that you can sell the macintosh for the same price you bought. The 6000$ performance of macintosh can be had for 1000 bucks ncore. After 20 years I would sell the ncore for 100 bucks. You would sell the macintosh for say 2k. Still you lost more than me.

Show me the price of an ncore that has 60 amps output and a preamp and peaks of 400 WPC into 8/4/2 ohms, please. Otherwise, please refrain from non sequiturs like "some speakers are collectible". That's completely irrelevant.

 

[jkasch]

Nobody is forcing you to purchase McIntosh or anything else. You purchase what makes sense to you. On the other hand, its nobody's place to question what others buying decisions are. As for power consumption, I've seen more than one example of people I know who are extremely 'green-aware' yet they drive big ass, gas-guzzling SUVs, with no sense of the irony.

Worse yet, some green zealots own several houses, multiple cars, a yacht, and a private jet. They think it is justified because of how important they are.

 

[MediumRare]

Worse yet, some green zealots own several houses, multiple cars, a yacht, and a private jet. They think it is justified because of how important they are.

That's just terrible! I'm glad choosing a brand that's carried in Best Buy makes those detestable creatures feel better about themselves.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

All of this only applies to power amplifiers. Tuners and pre-amplifiers are obsolete technology in the modern digital age. And power amplifiers are a solved problem because almost all of them perform better than human hearing. What remains is reliability and value for money on the one hand, and electricity consumption on the other. Here the modern class D power amps are hard to beat.

You're quite right except for the 'reliability' part. Speaking from the experience of working for multiple manufacturers of power amplifiers of all classes over the years (including my own experience over decades), I can confidently say that reliability has if anything gotten worse, regardless of amplifier class. On the low end, the main problem is simply the problem of trying to make an amplifier for the cheapest possible cost. Of course ultimate reliability suffers as a result, and to be honest, the expectation of today's typical customer is that things don't last long.

With higher quality amplifiers, plain old class A/B is still more reliable long-term than class D. Not only are the electronic components in class D modules working under more demanding margins, but there's the fact that class D modules pretty much universally cannot be repaired; a typical high quality class A/B amplifier can readily and easily be repaired, and the components to do so are more likely to be available 10, 20 or more years down the road.

Beyond that, the otherwise ancient vacuum tube technology is more reliable still than typical solid state in amplifiers or any other type of HiFi component. Absent outright abuse, a high quality vacuum tube amplifier can be expected to last half a century or more, with the tubes themselves being the only maintenance item. Although I will point out that I've purchased many tube power amplifiers manufactured even as far back as the 1950s which still have their original tubes, and the amplifier performs to spec.

It could be said that today's class D amplifiers are so inexpensive that 'reliability' doesn't really matter, and to some extent that would be true, except for the fact that purchasing something which is going to be ending up in the landfill after a relatively short time, and the pollution of having to manufacture something to take its place, makes the 'conservation' argument pretty much a moot point. But that's a problem with our broader society and the state of consumer electronics - ever see the videos of literal mountains of discarded electronics being bulldozed by (diesel polluting) tractors?

 

[sergeauckland]

You're quite right except for the 'reliability' part. Speaking from the experience of working for multiple manufacturers of power amplifiers of all classes over the years (including my own experience over decades), I can confidently say that reliability has if anything gotten worse, regardless of amplifier class. On the low end, the main problem is simply the problem of trying to make an amplifier for the cheapest possible cost. Of course ultimate reliability suffers as a result, and to be honest, the expectation of today's typical customer is that things don't last long.

With higher quality amplifiers, plain old class A/B is still more reliable long-term than class D. Not only are the electronic components in class D modules working under more demanding margins, but there's the fact that class D modules pretty much universally cannot be repaired; a typical high quality class A/B amplifier can readily and easily be repaired, and the components to do so are more likely to be available 10, 20 or more years down the road.

Beyond that, the otherwise ancient vacuum tube technology is more reliable still than typical solid state in amplifiers or any other type of HiFi component. Absent outright abuse, a high quality vacuum tube amplifier can be expected to last half a century or more, with the tubes themselves being the only maintenance item. Although I will point out that I've purchased many tube power amplifiers manufactured even as far back as the 1950s which still have their original tubes, and the amplifier performs to spec.

It could be said that today's class D amplifiers are so inexpensive that 'reliability' doesn't really matter, and to some extent that would be true, except for the fact that purchasing something which is going to be ending up in the landfill after a relatively short time, and the pollution of having to manufacture something to take its place, makes the 'conservation' argument pretty much a moot point. But that's a problem with our broader society and the state of consumer electronics - ever see the videos of literal mountains of discarded electronics being bulldozed by (diesel polluting) tractors?

I've thought long and hard about replacing my perfectly serviceable Class AB amplifiers with Class D, and have concluded that firstly, buying new amplifiers is only valid if my existing amplifiers get sold and used, as if they're scrapped, they'll just contribute to the waste mountain. Secondly, my amplifiers are now some 10 years old, and expect them to go on another 20 as anything that requires replacing, like power supply capacitors, can be done easily. I'm not sure that the same applies to Class D amps, especially if the fault is semiconductors which I can easily replace in my current amps, more difficult in something entirely SMT.

Finally, as to power consumption, my amps draw around 20 watts from the mains whether operating at normal listening levels, or at idle. A Class D amp would draw less at idle, but only a little less operating, so how much energy would be saved over the lifetime of the amps is debatable. Every little helps, I accept, but compared with the energy needed to make them in the first place, I'm not sure the numbers come out right.

As to McIntosh amps, I don't know how their current amps are made, but as their 20 or more year old SS amps are still functioning and repairable, it doesn't look to me as if they are such a bad thing. I exclude all valved amplifiers, as they are unnecessarily profligate on power (just the heaters consume more than my power amps do when working) and Class A amps as being similarly pointless, but whether Class AB or Class D, keep what you have.

Having said that, should I have to replace my amps as being beyond economic repair (or even possible repair) then certainly I would replace them with Class D as any modern AB amps are just as likely to use SMT, and quite likely be unrepairable.

S.