Were there ever any efforts to develop improved analog audio formats?

[Brofeld]

Hi,

while I personally think that digital audio was an absolutely game changing quantum leap kind of technology, I still sometimes wonder whether it would also have been possible to develop some kind of technology which would have significantly improved analog audio. Like for example (just spitballing here) having some kind of optical disc read by a laser, like a CD, just with analog sound on it.

Would this be possible? And were there any efforts to go beyond reel-to-reel machines and turntables?

I think I read somewhere that early Laserdiscs still had analog soundtracks - if so, how was the sound quality on those?

 

[anmpr1]

Hi,

I still sometimes wonder whether it would also have been possible to develop some kind of technology which would have significantly improved analog audio.

I think I read somewhere that early Laserdiscs still had analog soundtracks - if so, how was the sound quality on those?

First, there are many excellent analog recordings that no one thinks 'needs improving'. The main factor in any of this is the skill of the recording engineer coupled to the talent of the artist, and the location. Not so much the gear, per se.

That said, there were certain 'developments' for analog recording/playback that were supposed to offer improvements. Some offering the consumer real world benefits, others questionable. A short list:

Dolby NR (A, B, C, S) for analog tape. A was for studio use. For consumers, B was the most widely used. Personally I never found C to offer much, if anything, over B. S was said to offer a big improvement in cassette sound, but by then, few cared because CD was taking over. I never heard a Dolby S deck. Also, the short lived Dolby FM broadcasts.

dbx encoding. Proprietary discs which didn't make much of an impression in the marketplace. I never had them, but some reviewers complained of an 'exaggerated' pumping between quiet and louder passages. Related, were several consumer 'add ons' of questionable importance. Bob Carver sold a sonic 'expansion' device. Sansui and Pioneer had their own processors (reverb and compression/expansion).

Various 'pop and click' machines which were sold to consumers. The claim was they 'masked' or limited audible clicking defects on records.

Dynagroove from RCA, which added a peculiar EQ curve to records that was supposed to 'correct' for inner groove distortion in regular (i.e., non Dynagroove) records. That didn't last long. Many negative reviews of the process.

DMM, was a pressing technique invented by Teldec. Some claim those records didn't sound 'right'. I have a handful that seem OK to me. At least as good as other 'mainstream' records.

Direct to Disc. IMO, those were generally the best sounding records, but typically a limiting factor was that the artists and program material were 'second tier', so although the sound was great, you didn't want to listen to the performances often.

There are probably others I can't think of off the top of my head.

 

[solderdude]

Hi,

while I personally think that digital audio was an absolutely game changing quantum leap kind of technology, I still sometimes wonder whether it would also have been possible to develop some kind of technology which would have significantly improved analog audio. Like for example (just spitballing here) having some kind of optical disc read by a laser, like a CD, just with analog sound on it.

Would this be possible? And were there any efforts to go beyond reel-to-reel machines and turntables?

I think I read somewhere that early Laserdiscs still had analog soundtracks - if so, how was the sound quality on those?

Digital formats exceed analog formats in all possible aspects so any analog recording system will always be inferior in quality compared to digital (archiving) so there is no need to explore this.

 

[Mnyb]

Wonder of not the digital idea came from necessity . The analog signal out of the mixing console had it's s/n ration and distortion , but it had to be saved to a media of some sort ? what you ask for is " a better tape machine" ?

And generation losses when mixing and overdubbing is a concern again a "better multitrack tape machine " ?

In digital you can get perfect copies .

I wonder if a better tape machine where possible or even reasonable ?

 

[JayGilb]

Wonder of not the digital idea came from necessity . The analog signal out of the mixing console had it's s/n ration and distortion , but it had to be saved to a media of some sort ? what you ask for is " a better tape machine" ?

And generation losses when mixing and overdubbing is a concern again a "better multitrack tape machine " ?

In digital you can get perfect copies .

I wonder if a better tape machine where possible or even reasonable ?

Research into digital recording had been in the works for decades before it reached the consumer in the form of the compact disk.
Mainstream chip technology fast enough for 44.1khz/16bit digital recording because possible in the 70s as well as the computer controlled manufacturing processes required to manufacture CDs. A huge amount of material science advancements also happened in those decades that allowed for precision processing.

It was simply the only way forward. Analog had reached it's peak and engineers and scientists knew this and started the process. Lots of fascinating information on the development of digital audio reproduction is available on-line. Sony and Phillips were among the early pioneers of this technology.

 

[mhardy6647]

Sony's BetaHiFi -- quickly followed (and superceded in the marketplace) by JVC's VHS HiFi -- were very clever high-performance (in most respects!) analog audio recording formats that used rotating heads and an FM signal to record wideband stereo audio with s/n ca. 90 dB -- and more or less independent of linear tape speed.
Lots of b!tching about head switching noise and tape dropouts -- but I have hours and hours of dubs, and some live concert recordings ("chamber music") that still sound very, very good.





This Zenith-branded (JVC made) VHS HiFi deck*, which we purchased in the mid-80s, is still my preferred platform for dubbing (as is shown here, photo from about 15 years ago).
Dollar for dollar, considerably better results than reel to reel -- and no NR required.

_______________________
*Designed for both normal video and dedicated stereo audio recording, and labeled as such. This deck included an audio only record mode, with fluorescent level meters and adjustable rec input levels, which over-rode the video heads.

 

[Mnyb]

Sony's BetaHiFi -- quickly followed (and superceded in the marketplace) by JVC's VHS HiFi -- were very clever high-performance (in most respects!) analog audio recording formats that used rotating heads and an FM signal to record wideband stereo audio with s/n ca. 90 dB -- and more or less independent of linear tape speed.
Lots of b!tching about head switching noise and tape dropouts -- but I have hours and hours of dubs, and some live concert recordings ("chamber music") that still sound very, very good.





This Zenith-branded (JVC made) VHS HiFi deck*, which we purchased in the mid-80s, is still my preferred platform for dubbing (as is shown here, photo from about 15 years ago).
Dollar for dollar, considerably better results than reel to reel -- and no NR required.

_______________________
*Designed for both normal video and dedicated stereo audio recording, and labeled as such. This deck included an audio only record mode, with fluorescent level meters and adjustable rec input levels, which over-rode the video heads.

Ahh now i remember those it's clever to use FM modulation , it was probaly the only way to get better noise performance from magnetic media.
I friend had one of those.

 

[RayDunzl]

I think I read somewhere that early Laserdiscs still had analog soundtracks - if so, how was the sound quality on those?

BonziBuddy says:

 

[Brofeld]

Sony's BetaHiFi -- quickly followed (and superceded in the marketplace) by JVC's VHS HiFi -- were very clever high-performance (in most respects!) analog audio recording formats that used rotating heads and an FM signal to record wideband stereo audio with s/n ca. 90 dB -- and more or less independent of linear tape speed.

Thanks, I never knew about those.

 

[staticV3]

Like for example (just spitballing here) having some kind of optical disc read by a laser, like a CD, just with analog sound on it.

Not sure about improvements compared to turntables, but there are optical analog audio formats:

 

[Mnyb]

The optical sound track of old movies have made it easier to restore the sound , you can sort of see what's part of the continues curve or just random noise specs

 

[robwpdx]

There were some issues in early digital recordings with the design of the anti-aliasing filter. They were fixed quickly; I have not followed filter design since.

The story of the development of MP3 compression at Fraunhofer Labs is fascinating, including the Susan Suzanne Vega tuning.

https://www.mp3-history.com/en/mp3_history_a_lookintothelab/suzanne_vega.html

Dr Berger of Stanford has done blind A-B tests of students for preference between compressed and uncompressed.

Radar - O’Reilly

Now, next, and beyond: Tracking need-to-know trends at the intersection of business and technology

radar.oreilly.com

There are 2 optical analog phono cartridges out there: one reads the groove with a laser, and the other has a small cantilever in the usual elastomeric setting, but with much lower mass, that is read by lasers. If it has not been done, you could probably read vinyl grooves with a camera.

I would bet these all have been discussed on ASR.

 

[mhardy6647]

The story of the development of MP3 compression at Fraunhofer Labs is fascinating, including the Susan SuzanneVega tuning.

I did not know that! Interesting.
PS I am at least a moderate (possibly even a big) fan of at least some of Suzanne Vega's output.

 

[egellings]

First, there are many excellent analog recordings that no one thinks 'needs improving'. The main factor in any of this is the skill of the recording engineer coupled to the talent of the artist, and the location. Not so much the gear, per se.

That said, there were certain 'developments' for analog recording/playback that were supposed to offer improvements. Some offering the consumer real world benefits, others questionable. A short list:

Dolby NR (A, B, C, S) for analog tape. A was for studio use. For consumers, B was the most widely used. Personally I never found C to offer much, if anything, over B. S was said to offer a big improvement in cassette sound, but by then, few cared because CD was taking over. I never heard a Dolby S deck. Also, the short lived Dolby FM broadcasts.

dbx encoding. Proprietary discs which didn't make much of an impression in the marketplace. I never had them, but some reviewers complained of an 'exaggerated' pumping between quiet and louder passages. Related, were several consumer 'add ons' of questionable importance. Bob Carver sold a sonic 'expansion' device. Sansui and Pioneer had their own processors (reverb and compression/expansion).

Various 'pop and click' machines which were sold to consumers. The claim was they 'masked' or limited audible clicking defects on records.

Dynagroove from RCA, which added a peculiar EQ curve to records that was supposed to 'correct' for inner groove distortion in regular (i.e., non Dynagroove) records. That didn't last long. Many negative reviews of the process.

DMM, was a pressing technique invented by Teldec. Some claim those records didn't sound 'right'. I have a handful that seem OK to me. At least as good as other 'mainstream' records.

Direct to Disc. IMO, those were generally the best sounding records, but typically a limiting factor was that the artists and program material were 'second tier', so although the sound was great, you didn't want to listen to the performances often.

There are probably others I can't think of off the top of my head.

I think the problem of direct to the disk was that the musicians had to play a whole side of an LP disc flawlessly. An error on the last song meant the whole side had to be played over from the beginning. The stress that placed on the musicians may have throttled their spontaneity, so they played conservatively, minimizing risk of error.

 

[Zapper]

I had a friend in the 80's who was an opera buff and loved his LaserDisc Met recordings for their video and audio superiority. The original audio was FM analog; Redbook digital PCM audio was added in the 80's, and later surround formats.