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USB to USB Streamer ¦ Replacing a computer in an audio system

majingotan

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Actually, all subjectivists experience that USB phenomenon even if their said computers don't necessarily have electric noise passing through USB issues. That's why streamers like Sonore and DIY devices like Pi2AES are thriving in business. Some resorted to pro audio solutions like Dante AoIP just to get rid of USB in the signal path

However, with the advent of well engineered DACs, USB galvanic isolation is definitely not necessary these days as shown hundreds of times from measuring DACs. Still curious to find out if you measure the D90 DAC using those Dell computers with bad USB port and actually detect that electrical noise seeping through the noise floor
 

pkane

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It is important not confuse sources of noise. Even though the modern world is training each one of us to think "digitally" the transport medium for the voltage levels representing the 0 and 1 states is, without a doubt analogue, where, as a simple example, the 0 state is represented by 0volts and the 1 state is represented by 5volts. Although the bit stream is said to be "digital" it is essentially an analogue electrical signal with two set levels, rather than the infinite number of levels in the analogue output from an amplifier.

The time required to change from one state to the other is referred to as the rise time and may be influenced by the electrical environment, such as the cables used. A good digital design engineer must also be a good analogue design engineer to understand how the various parts of a digital system can influence the shape and timing of a "digital" pulse, such as the rise time and ringing. Ringing will be one component of "jitter". Expensive external reclockers and master clocks are recommended to minimise jitter, as well as linear power supplies; SMPS devices are electrically "noisy" and can inject noise into the system, whether on the power line or by EM interference. Carefully designed filters are included in the better DAC circuits in an attempt to remove all forms of unwanted noise (for example https://www.project-audio.com/en/product/pre-box-s2-digital/).

A good illustration of a "real world" digital pulse is provided by mitchco in the posting at https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...link-by-stack-audio-and-signal-detoxing.7578/. Signal detoxing is really another way of talking about removing superfluous noise from the "digital" signal. The USB output port of any computer will effectively inject noise and timing uncertainty (aka jitter) into the output stream to a USB DAC. Timing. or clocking, and pulse shape is what makes or breaks a digital system, loose the precision synchronisation between the clock signal and the digital data stream has a real time impact on the quality of output from the DAC and the sound quality of the music system. Jitter can be thought of as a measure of uncertainty of where the digital signal is in the time domain and the actual voltage level of the data signal when the system clock signal is active, compared to where it should be (as in the original source). In simple terms any pick-up that will affect an analogue signal will also affect a digital signal, but in a different way.

All of the devices listed previously are used to control the music files streamed to a USB DAC and some, through good audio / analogue design and other strategies, are able to "detox" the signal and improve the synchronisation of the system clock with the digital data stream, thereby reducing jitter.

The SMSL SU-8 and various Topping DAC designs have balanced outputs which should remove much of the noise between the DAC and the amplifier, but still leaves the digital stream to the DAC input to be considered. It also requires an amplifier with balanced inputs.

All of my digital music files are held on external USB hard drives and the current DAC has a USB input, which explains why I would like to add a control device that at the same time will detox the data stream. Perhaps part of this explains why contributors have posted something along the lines of "yeah, but its not all about the DAC chip" ! This is not about the noise measured within a DAC under test but about reducing the noise and signal timing inaccuracy in the data stream input to the DAC.

While it's may sound like a good theory that jitter on the USB bus can somehow affect the timing of audio samples at the output of a DAC, this is rarely confirmed by direct evidence. This problem exists mostly in poorly designed, not well-tested devices. If a $100 DAC designer can solve this problem, so can anyone else charging 10x to 1000x as much. The fact that some don't isn't a reason to purchase additional 'detox' devices, it's a reason not to purchase these poorly engineered DACs.
 
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Fleuch

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A noisy signal arriving at the input of the best designed DAC has the potential to degrade the sound quality of the analogue output, which explains why good designers filter out EMI and powerline noise (as low as reasonably acceptable) from the signal to the DAC chip.

The pick up on the internal connections to a USB output port within a computer are well documented, which then becomes part of the signal transmitted to the DAC. Timing problems associated with jitter are also well documented, for example on www,lowbeats.de (Google translate makes a good job of translating the articles) and the late Julian Dunn's papers, referred to by Amir, can be found at http://www.nanophon.com/audio/. Unless a real world system is auditioned with and without the addition of devices designed to improve the signal quality, in the the form of A / B testing, there is absolutely no definitive answer. Well respected reviewers note there is a difference in different aspects of the sound produced by their reference systems, but this is also subjective to each individual reference system. It all depends what the user expects from the overall system whether the additional expense is justified.

The clock signal is not transmitted with the source data signal which means the DAC clock might not be in precise synchronism with the incoming data stream. Scroll further down in the article referred to (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/understanding-audio-measurements.2351/) Amir writes: "Note: there is no jitter in the test signal itself. It is the nature of a higher frequency tone like 12 kHz to accentuate jitter because jitter correlates with how fast our signal is. Small clock differences don't matter to a slow low frequency wave like 60 Hz. But make it 12,000 Hz and small variations in clock to produce the next sample can become a much bigger deal." However Amir is using one computer and has confidence in the signal output from that computer to the test rig, but that is an example of one computer and one computer only.

As the title of the article indicates it is understanding the possible sources of noise, or error, in a digital system and whether it is value for money to attempt to mitigate issues such as jitter, linearity, harmonic distortion, internal and external noise sources, and intermodulation noise that is important and whether this improves the overall listening experience. As an example, tests on the Schiit DACs might not place the equipment at the top end of the measured performance chain but some reviewers have complimented the sound quality of these devices in their systems.

At the design stage of external DACs there is much that can be done to remove internal errors and internal noise but it is impossible for external problems to be completely removed. Previous posts show experience of problems using USB connections in an audio system. Devices are on the market to improve the quality of the digital signal at the input to the DAC but it is individual choice whether the additional expenditure is made.

Many thanks to those who have shared their experience of some of the devices I originally asked about

 

Willem

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I don't notice any issues using either an old ODAC or a modern RME ADI-2 DAC. Far more important would be mechanical noise from a computer's fan etc. My next desktop computer is certainly going to be fanless.
 

captain paranoia

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The clock signal is not transmitted with the source data signal which means the DAC clock might not be in precise synchronism with the incoming data stream

In a modern USB audio interface, data is pulled from the source, using a packet request protocol ('asynchronous USB'). The DAC is therefore the timing master (just as it is in an integrated CD player). This is the same sort of protocol I'm familiar with from implementing baseband stages of software defined radios.

SPDIF is source clock master (it's a unidirectional interface, so no chance for the DAC to drive the clock).

I2S can use source or destination clock master, so it depends on the implementation.

Early USB protocols did not allow destination flow control, so had to rely on a clock derived from the source (I think...).

VoIP uses a local clock for transmit and receive, but is frame-based, and allows frame drop or repeat to cope with the different clock frequency at each end. This is acceptable in a low quality voice call, but would be unacceptable in audio (and in the SDR systems I've worked on).

I'm in the 'the DAC USB interface should prevent noise coupling to the DAC analogue output' camp. If USB noise couples to the DAC output, the DAC is badly designed.
 

chasefrench

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I would actually like to now change my previous answers! I have since upgraded speakers to PMC TwoTwo 5's and a MassDrop 789. The sound of noise and even the Noctua CPU fan is really quite prominent through the PMC's especially. It was not through the previous speakers, the Acoustic Energy AE1+

I will be buying the Topping D90 and reporting back when the MQA version comes out, in fairness the Benchmark Dac1 USB is really quite old before USB isolation was used and doesn't score that well on ASR. But goes to show how different equipment reacts differently. I really hope the Toppintg removes the hiss!
 

Nikolaos

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The reasons for providing an “air gap” in an audio system between a computer and a DAC are many, particularly the noise on either the USB or Ethernet outputs. A laptop, tablet or smartphone provide options to control audio standard devices such as network players, network streamers, network bridges and other devices.

Many of the DACs listed on ASR have USB inputs and may be designed with direct connection to a computer as part of the brief.

Few network streamers are available to replace a computer that have a USB input for a hard disk drive, as the music source, and a USB output to the DAC.

This is important, as changing or upgrading the DAC is less expensive than changing a network player. From the specifications of most network players, the actual DAC chips often have lower specifications, or are an earlier release by the chip manufacturer, compared to stand-alone DACs. For example, Audiolab have used the ESS ES9018K2M chip in its latest range of audio products. Agreed, and for the avoidance of doubt, the performance of a DAC depends on much more than the DAC chip itself but it helps if mainstream manufacturers incorporate new and improved products in their designs, such as ESS ES9038Q2M or PRO. It gives the purchaser confidence that the manufacturer has a policy of continuous development..

There is not a wide selection of network streamers available that have a USB input and a USB output to connect to a USB DAC available at reasonable cost, where software, and the hardware required to control the streamer, further restricts choice.

A very incomplete survey suggests the following are some of the options currently available,

Volumio: Primo and Mini. From the information available, the devices have the Volumio software embedded and controlled through a web browser running on another device.

Pro-Ject: Head Box S2 Digital; Stream Box S2; Stream Box S2 Ultra. Only the Stream Box S2 Ultra has a USB output.

Auralic: Aries Mini: no longer available from Auralic but can still be found. The problem is the app only runs under iOS. Retailers have suggested a web browser can be used to control the Mini.

SOtM : the basic design is the SMS 200 Neo, with a range of “improved” options and upgrade plug-in modules available. An earlier version of the SMS200 has been reviewed on ASR (Many thanks for the hard work, Amir)

Stack Audio : The Link. Reviewers have noted the similarity of the design, influenced by John Westlake, to the Stream Box S2 Ultra. Also reviewers have noted an improvement in sound quality due to additional filtering and cooler operation.

Going upmarket

Lindemann : Limetree Bridge and Limetree Network. Reviewers have reported excellent sound quality when using both devices, but note the cost of either is high. Both devices use a Lindemann app.

Leema : Elements Streamer. There is no USB output and the cost is excessive.

Most of the designs appear to incorporate a SBC, in some cases a RaspberryPi Compute Module.

The only device tested by ASR is an earlier version of the SOtM SMS 200. There may be similar products available from SMSL, Topping and other manufacturers but are not easy to find.

Streaming is not important to me now but would be a welcome as a form of future proofing.

Discussion on the use of these devices and advice on how to obtain the best value for money would be most welcome.

As a post script, the Topping D90 DAC looks very attractive; again thanks to Amir for a review so soon after product release.

If you only do what you have always done, you will only get what you have always had (attributed to Albert Einstein)
According to web site the devices of Limetree Bridge and Limetree Network support USB port only for storage and not for audio purposes
 
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Fleuch

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The manual for the Lindemann Network states on page 21 "USB host connector for docking USB storage media or external CD Players. Max ampacity [sic] : 1.5A.

The manual for the Lindemann bridge has the same wording but omits the maximum output.

It is reasonable to suggest that a USB device connected to the USB input, with stored files in a supported format (WAV, FLAC, AIFF, ALAC, MP3, AAC, Ogg Vorbis, WMA, DSD), can be used as a source for both the Lindemann devices..

Stack Audio has produced a second generation of the Link device, but this time it is designed purely for streaming - there is no facility for connecting USB storage media, as was found in the Link 1. A reclocker by another name.

To date there is no alternative to the Aries Mini in terms of the variety of ways it can be used, even as a music server, simply by slipping a SSD / HDD into the case.

The vastly more expensive Auralic units currently on the market just do not have the same flexibility. There is an obvious gap in the market for an enterprising manufacturer to fill.
 

Nikolaos

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The manual for the Lindemann Network states on page 21 "USB host connector for docking USB storage media or external CD Players. Max ampacity [sic] : 1.5A.

The manual for the Lindemann bridge has the same wording but omits the maximum output.

It is reasonable to suggest that a USB device connected to the USB input, with stored files in a supported format (WAV, FLAC, AIFF, ALAC, MP3, AAC, Ogg Vorbis, WMA, DSD), can be used as a source for both the Lindemann devices..

Stack Audio has produced a second generation of the Link device, but this time it is designed purely for streaming - there is no facility for connecting USB storage media, as was found in the Link 1. A reclocker by another name.

To date there is no alternative to the Aries Mini in terms of the variety of ways it can be used, even as a music server, simply by slipping a SSD / HDD into the case.

The vastly more expensive Auralic units currently on the market just do not have the same flexibility. There is an obvious gap in the market for an enterprising manufacturer to fill.

For example my own system comprises by CXA81 amp with USB 2.0 class audio port, monitor audio silver 500 speakers and volumio burn on a sd card on rpi4. Yes noise exits on rpi4 sounds like little "tsik" from speakers. Because the amp incorporates a fine dac the only way to achieve 32/384 khz dsd256 is via USB port. So, I am into sotm sms200 neo, ultra rendu or innuos zenmini mk3. I use windows 10 and android phone. What do you suggest me.
 
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Fleuch

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For example my own system comprises by CXA81 amp with USB 2.0 class audio port, monitor audio silver 500 speakers and volumio burn on a sd card on rpi4. Yes noise exits on rpi4 sounds like little "tsik" from speakers. Because the amp incorporates a fine dac the only way to achieve 32/384 khz dsd256 is via USB port. So, I am into sotm sms200 neo, ultra rendu or innuos zenmini mk3. I use windows 10 and android phone. What do you suggest me.

From your post, it is reasonable to suggest you are looking for an upgrade for the RPi4. As you use a PC and an Android phone you probably stream music from the internet and music files held the PC or an external USB hard drive.

The Cambridge Audio CXA 81has an integrated ESS Sabre 9016 DAC, which you would like to continue to use. A “network music player” may not be what you are looking for. Any of the devices listed in the thread would replace the RPi4

As you are already familiar with the Volumio software, the Volumio Primo is an obvious starting point. The Primo has an on-board ESS Sabre 9038 DAC, with options for analogue output or digital to an external DAC, which, in this case, would be the digital input on the CXA 81. It would be worth the time to connect the Primo analogue output to the analogue inputs on the CXA 81, just to see which DAC you prefer to listen to. You could make one further upgrade, replacing the 5V power supply with a linear power supply, such as the one from Topping which costs a lot less than the equivalent SBooster device. The available input and output combinations provide real flexibility, so a DAC can be upgraded without upgrading the amplifier.

In your post, you mentioned DSD256. The Primo technical specification states “ES9038Q2M DAC via I2S, PCM 24 bits 192kHz , DSD128 via DoP”, which might not be sufficient for you. The next step up the ladder is to consider the Lindemann Network, with the same proviso about quality of power supply, although Lindemann provides a 'medical grade' power supply. The Lindemann web page states “Technically speaking, the Limetree NETWORK is way ahead: all digital signals can be converted into DSD 256, a data format which is highly esteemed by audiophiles worldwide. This radical new approach also lets "normal" recordings in CD quality shine with an exceptionally good sound.” There are different schools of thought about digital upsampling. Regarding the USB issue, the manual states “USB host connector for docking USB storage media or external CD players”, which, in my opinion, is another way of saying the device can read music files from external USB HDD drives and CD players.

If the Auralic Aries Mini was still available, it would be my 'go-to' recommendation as an upgrade for the RPi4. The nearest to this is in cost and performance is the Volumio Primo. The SOtM sMS 200 neo is purely a transport, with no analogue output, which might meet your needs but check out whether the software is limited to the Euhasu app. The SOtM sMS-200Ultra NEO Network Player is another step up, but so is the cost. Pro-Ject have similar devices you might wish to consider. For the record, I am not involved with either Volumio of Lindemann, in any way!
 

Nikolaos

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thanks for your reply. Regarding volumio primo its USB ports its not audio class 2.0 which means it is not suited for my CXA81 amp. Same for Lindenmann limetree network. I am not using analogue outputs. Auralic Mini would be one of the best solutions but its app is for IOS and not for android. If I use android app then I will not get the streaming services of auralic mini (e.g. spotify, tidal). I have used a demo of sotm sms200 ultra but too many drop outs happened. Suddenly the sd card does not work and should be burned again. I have heard the innuos zenmini mk3 and is one solution if you want to use Roon. Which streamer are you using?
 

Soniclife

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Two of the dacs tested with the Dell were a $2.5k highly reviewed item (name withheld to protect the guilty) and an ARCAM irdac. Both produced audible noise at the listening seat. An Olimex USB isolator cured both of the noise, but the expensive DAC then suffered "clicks" every minute or so. Root cause would require an engineering investigation of the eye diagram: these low cost isolators use the same chip with relatively high jitter, so pure conjecture would lean towards timing slips. This illustrates yet another USB audio interop risk that's not tested.
My silent fanless desktop PC causes quite a bit of noise via USB into a lot of crap DACs, and a small amount into some more expensive ones, I too found the Olimex cured the problem. But my active Eve audio speakers are completely silent and need no fixing. It's annoying when it happens but I think better designed kit solves the problem.
 
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Fleuch

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thanks for your reply. Regarding volumio primo its USB ports its not audio class 2.0 which means it is not suited for my CXA81 amp. Same for Lindenmann limetree network. I am not using analogue outputs. Auralic Mini would be one of the best solutions but its app is for IOS and not for android. If I use android app then I will not get the streaming services of auralic mini (e.g. spotify, tidal). I have used a demo of sotm sms200 ultra but too many drop outs happened. Suddenly the sd card does not work and should be burned again. I have heard the innuos zenmini mk3 and is one solution if you want to use Roon. Which streamer are you using?

The Cambridge Audio web page for the CXA 81 states “USB: audio profile 1.0/2.0 (default 2.0), up to 32bit 384kHz PCM, up to DSD256 or DoP256” (https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/usa/en/products/hi-fi/cx-series-2/cxa81). As the default is USB 2.0 the USB input on the CXA 81 will work perfectly well with any device that has a USB 2.0 connector. The Volumio Primo or Lindemann Network (or Bridge) will be able to interface with the CXA 81. To put it another way, a Windows 10 PC or Android device does not claim to meet the USB Device Class Definition for Audio Devices, yet both are able to stream to the CXA 81.

In my own system, I have an Auralic Aries Mini, allowing me to select either a digital output (to an external DAC based on the ESS Sabre 9038) or an analogue output direct to the amplifier. Music files held on a Windows 10 PC, with an external hard drive, are streamed using Asset as the music server and a UPnP app (such as Bubble or HiFiCast), running on an Android tablet, as the control interface. As the Aries Mini has UPnP capability it is not essential to use the Auralic Lightning app. Finding a streamer with a UPnP facility allows greater choice and removes reliance on a single manufacturer. At the moment my collection of available music is sufficient not to need a subscription to an internet streaming service, so I am unable to advise on accessing such services. Have you considered the BlueSound Node 2i (https://www.bluesound.com/), which claims to interface with 20+ services, where the product range includes the Vault 2i at less cost then the Innuous?

The only USB isolator listed on the Olimex web site is the USB-ISO, which is “a USB Full speed USB 2.0 compliant port isolator with a 1000V isolation voltage”. The USB-ISO provides over-voltage protection when connecting a PC to equipment running at higher voltages than the 5V USB connection. If it improves the audio performance of a USB link then it is by accident rather than design.

Apologies, in the previous post I should have written “For the record, I am not involved with Volumio, Lindemann or any other manufacturer or retailer, in any way whatsoever” – merely a user of digital audio products.
 

Nikolaos

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The Cambridge Audio web page for the CXA 81 states “USB: audio profile 1.0/2.0 (default 2.0), up to 32bit 384kHz PCM, up to DSD256 or DoP256” (https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/usa/en/products/hi-fi/cx-series-2/cxa81). As the default is USB 2.0 the USB input on the CXA 81 will work perfectly well with any device that has a USB 2.0 connector. The Volumio Primo or Lindemann Network (or Bridge) will be able to interface with the CXA 81. To put it another way, a Windows 10 PC or Android device does not claim to meet the USB Device Class Definition for Audio Devices, yet both are able to stream to the CXA 81.

In my own system, I have an Auralic Aries Mini, allowing me to select either a digital output (to an external DAC based on the ESS Sabre 9038) or an analogue output direct to the amplifier. Music files held on a Windows 10 PC, with an external hard drive, are streamed using Asset as the music server and a UPnP app (such as Bubble or HiFiCast), running on an Android tablet, as the control interface. As the Aries Mini has UPnP capability it is not essential to use the Auralic Lightning app. Finding a streamer with a UPnP facility allows greater choice and removes reliance on a single manufacturer. At the moment my collection of available music is sufficient not to need a subscription to an internet streaming service, so I am unable to advise on accessing such services. Have you considered the BlueSound Node 2i (https://www.bluesound.com/), which claims to interface with 20+ services, where the product range includes the Vault 2i at less cost then the Innuous?

The only USB isolator listed on the Olimex web site is the USB-ISO, which is “a USB Full speed USB 2.0 compliant port isolator with a 1000V isolation voltage”. The USB-ISO provides over-voltage protection when connecting a PC to equipment running at higher voltages than the 5V USB connection. If it improves the audio performance of a USB link then it is by accident rather than design.

Apologies, in the previous post I should have written “For the record, I am not involved with Volumio, Lindemann or any other manufacturer or retailer, in any way whatsoever” – merely a user of digital audio products.

thanks for the reply, yes of cource you can use USB 2.0 but for example on sotm sms200 2 USB ports are attached one for the AMP/DAC and one for storage devices which means the the first port uses a kind of USB isolator. Bluesound streams only 192 kHz, 24 bit with no DSD capability. With auralic aries mini can you connect to roon, jriver, audiorvana ?
 

boblo

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I'm looking for a good (and future-proof) streamer with USB audio output and MQA and DSD passthrough (at least with 32bit/384kHz and DSD256 support). My candidates are:

* Pro-Ject Stream Box S2 Ultra. It seems a very good device but expensive considering it's a bit dated with Bluetooth 4.0 and I don't know if it supports double band WiFi (5GHz).

* Stack Audio Link II. A model recently released. It seems more polished than the S2 Ultra (it uses an eMMC drive instead of a microSD card and the cooling is better). The negatives are the USB port for connecting mass storage is currently disabled and if users replace the stock OS with Volumio, for example, WiFi support is removed. It's similarly priced though.

The Volumio Primo HiFi Edition has no USB audio output, but is packed with a ES9038Q2M DAC and coaxial output and it's a similar product with almost the same price.

My use cases will be: Streaming from Tidal (Masters included, so full MQA support is important) and maybe Qobuz too. I also would like to connect an USB portable hard drive with FLAC and APE files and manage a local library for quick searching. Internet radios are welcome but not a must. I don't know the Volumio OS but I have seen videos on YouTube and seems easy to use and reliable. I currently have a SMSL SU-9 DAC but I think I'm going to replace it with a Gustard X16 when is available (so MQA rendering won't be an issue).

Comments and other recommendations are welcome. Modern hardware would be desirable (for example BT 5.0, double band WiFi, recent chipset...)
but keep in mind that WiFi support is almost mandatory and I'm not a Roon (or Audirvana) user (I don't want a computer working 24/7).

Thanks in advance
 
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Kal Rubinson

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The Volumio Primo HiFi Edition has no USB audio output, but is packed with a ES9038Q2M DAC and coaxial output and it's a similar product with almost the same price.
My review of this is in the latest issue of Stereophile.
 
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