1. The link works for me.
2. The Sigma Streamer works well for me but I have tried it only with the exSound e38/II. The designer says that it might work with other non-exaSound DACS but he has not tried (nor have I).
3. I might give it a try.
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USB to USB Streamer ¦ Replacing a computer in an audio system
- Thread starter Fleuch
- Start date
2. The Sigma Streamer works well for me but I have tried it only with the exSound e38/II. The designer says that it might work with other non-exaSound DACS but he has not tried (nor have I).
3. I might give it a try.
This discussion rears it’s head a lot and I’m not sure why
We are talking about a server that connects to a network inc. internet, some storage and a dac. Surely the criteria are the same as with any other server application-it should make data available, keep it confidential and maintain its integrity within an expected budget meeting specific operational requirements around energy consumption/size/environment etc. Surely the discussion should be about the suitability of the hardware/software stack, the storage options, does it handle backups properly (BTW the answer is absolutely not in all cases I have seen)
and oh yes, it needs at enough USB ports to connect the dac and a harddrive or two. I worry about the psychological impact on the audiophiles that are going to lose 000’s of ripped cds when the magnetic poles switch and all they’ve been taught to worry about is the utterly solved problem of the usb output.
We are talking about a server that connects to a network inc. internet, some storage and a dac. Surely the criteria are the same as with any other server application-it should make data available, keep it confidential and maintain its integrity within an expected budget meeting specific operational requirements around energy consumption/size/environment etc. Surely the discussion should be about the suitability of the hardware/software stack, the storage options, does it handle backups properly (BTW the answer is absolutely not in all cases I have seen)and oh yes, it needs at enough USB ports to connect the dac and a harddrive or two. I worry about the psychological impact on the audiophiles that are going to lose 000’s of ripped cds when the magnetic poles switch and all they’ve been taught to worry about is the utterly solved problem of the usb output.
- Thread Starter
- #43
Hi Boblo, The music pathway I am interested in is from an external hard drive, through an audio-quality renderer (or streamer) and an external DAC, to a an acceptably-fi amplifier, avoiding a ubiquitous laptop handling the music data. This is similar to what you describe, without connecting to the internet to access Tidal or Qobuz.
It is worth noting that the Pro-Ject Stream Box S2 Ultra and Stack Audio Link II are very similar and the designs are from, I believe, the drawing board of the same engineer. Both, I also believe, use customised Volumio software, but hope there may be someone who is able to verify this. The original Stack Audio Link had a USB input, but Stack Audio have deleted, or disabled, this feature to improve the streaming performance; the Stack Audio Link II is simply a streamer, unable to handle files on an external hard drive.
There are a number of excellent reviews (https://www.hifichoice.com/content/volumio-primo; https://www.avforums.com/reviews/volumio-primo-network-audio-player-review.16218) of the Volumio Primo, (https://volumio.org/product/volumio-primo/ ) which is based on the Asus Tinkerboard. Correspondence with Volumio confirms that the four USB ports can be individually configured as input or output, with the option of a coax digital output. The long awaited Volumio Motivo (https://volumio.org/epic-journey-called-volumio-motivo/ ) will be shipped towards the middle of the year Cost might be a barrier although there is no need for an additional smart phone or tablet to run an app to control the renderer / streamer as it has its own interactive display.
If the Auralic Aries Mini was still available it would be top of the value-for-money list, which is what I am using but considering a move up the ladder. There are a number of hardware options to browse through, but "the budget" is always the defining factor. It is a personal preference not to consider the SoTM sMS 200 series (https://www.sotm-audio.com/sotmwp/english/portfolio-item/sms-200/ ). Next up are the Lindemann Bridge and Network devices in the Limetree series of products (https://lindemann-audio.de/products/limetree-series/network/?lang=en; https://lindemann-audio.de/products/limetree-series/bridge/?lang=en). Based on the RaspberryPi, Orchard Audio's PecanPi (https://orchardaudio.com/pecanpi ) has attracted very positive reviews at a reasonable price point. A little more basic, and adventurous, is the DigiOne range (https://www.allo.com/ )
This list is far from exhaustive.
Many thanks to gkhowell for posting the link to the exaSound web site. The exaSound SigmaStreamer ( https://www.exasound.com/Products/SigmaStreamer.aspx) deserves a closer look, particularly at its price point, although the shipping cost from Canada is a deterrent ! The web site has information on a range of other interesting products, particularly the streaming DACs.
There is much debate on whether MQA is a valued addition to audiophile excellence or is a marketing ploy by NAD / Lenbrook Group. It should not be seen as the new audio nirvana, but left to the perception of each individual listener to decide on its merits.
Lastly, why do you want to replace the SMSL SU-9 with a Gustard X16 ? Would you hear any major differences in your system between the SMSL SU-9 and the Gustard X16 if you were to play the same music through each as part of an A/B test? The SU-9 uses a single ESS9038Pro chip and the X16 uses two ESS9068AS chips in dual mono configuration. There is little to choose between the two, based on Amir's reviews, particularly in the SINAD measurements.. It is not all about the DAC chip iself, it is the listening experience, the overall implementation, the components around the DAC and the overall circuit design.
Hope some of this helps
Yes, John Westlake, I think he was a former Cambridge Audio engineer, although the main engineer of the Link II was Theo Stack (I think that Westlake was an assistant in this project). But according Hans Beekhuyzen, the Link II has a more polished motherboard (as I said, it uses an eMMc drive as internal storage and it has better cooling due to better housing). However, I think that the motherboard is the same.
No, it isn't. The Pro-Ject uses a customized Volumio OS, but the Link II uses the Stack OS if I'm not wrong. They discarded Volumio this time, although you can flash the original Volumio OS if you want (but you'll lose the WiFi driver) as you can with the S2 Ultra.
Not exactly. The USB input on the Link II is there but disabled until Stack Audio release a new firmware with mass storage support. They show a picture on their website with the USB input and the following caption: 'reserved for future use'. The same goes for the HDMI output, is currently disabled for 'better performance', but you can enable it with a third-party OS. Further information here (go to the bottom of the web page).
Interesting. Do you think the Primo is better (SQ wise) than the S2 Ultra and the Link II? I'm considering it, although I think I won't take advantage of its built-in DAC, but the HiFi edition (with Tidal and Qobuz integration) is reasonably priced at €649. That being said, I have received an offer for a second-hand (but almost new, with few hours usage) S2 Ultra for €550. What would you do? I'm hesitant... Keep in mind that the S2 Ultra is at €699 on most online shops. Anyway, I think it's overpriced, because it's basically a refined Raspberry Pi 3B with a customized Volumio OS.
What a shame, it's pretty nice, but I'm in a hurry now, can't wait.
Interesting. I think Auralic is an expensive brand, their wonderful Aries G1 costs more than $2,000.
WHY? Some people recommended this.
What do you think about the INNUOS ZENMINI MK III?
Due to quality issues. I'm happy with its sound (truly awesome), but build quality is mediocre at best. Mine is not stable, I have the '3 rubber feet issue' as others stated before; the USB connector is not reliable and the USB cable is not easy to remove either (others stated this too). In addition, the built-in sound color filters (with 'Tube' or 'Crystal' emulation) are 'placebo' (at least with my Hi-Fi gear), although other reviewers also agree about this. Last but not least (for me) I prefer the sample rate with big numbers instead of the current volume, because I leave the volume fixed and modify it with my amplifier.
Yes, you have been helpful. Thanks.Hope some of this helps
As far as I can tell a standard raspberry pi b 4 with 1g of ram easily meets your requirements. I just got rid of my allo usbridge sig and replaced it with the pi and a very nice aluminium fabless case from akasa. The the power supply the cost was about £60 British pounds. It’s fine, I didn’t bother to blind test to know it is indistinguishable because my dac doesn’t care whether it got a packet of data from the latest dCS car priced device or a toaster.
IMO there’s not much to finish about a pi 4 running moode audio etc. It took me 15 minutes to put the pi in the akasa gem case, insert sd card with moode and it was done:
http://www.akasa.com.tw/update.php?...Fanless Chassis&type_sub=Fanless Raspberry Pi
- Thread Starter
- #48
Hi Boblo
It seems like our paths and opinions almost converge on hardware and diverge on use. At the moment streaming is a foreign land for me and my "prime directive" is to render files held on external USB hard drives, rather than stream from a NAS drive, and avoid a laptop handing the music files. The thought of running a NAS drive 24/7 (or whatever) is not appealing. Also I like to "roll" external DACs, which explains my preference for dual-mono configurations. Having seen the shots of the interior of the current Auralic devices it seems like a lot of expensive empty space inside the box, particularly when compared to the Aries Mini. It is difficult to know the difference between the Auralic devices, except the price, and there are more reasonable products from the same part of the globe, such as those from Lumin. Each of the Auralic boxes only do part of what the Aries Mini did at a fraction of the cost - see if you can find on on Amazon or eBay ?
With this in mind, the Lindemann Bridge should be a natural fit, but it still requires a controller app running on a tablet. It also points to using the Primo as a transport, rather than using the internal DAC. There are a number of favourable reviews, complete with an EISA product award. More than one review has noted that the Pro-Ject Stream Box S2 Ultra runs somewhat on the warm side. The exaSound Sigma Streamer looks interesting at € 685.12, from https://gear.nativedsd.com/ based in the Netherlands. The site has other similar devices on offer, such as the Sonore microRendu v1.5 (€ 469), and a number of other devices which are worth looking at. As exaSound is a direct sales company this is the only other supplier and has the advantage it trades in the EU. Compared to the Primo the S2 Ultra is "expensive", which is also true of the Lindemann Bridge; it is based on a generic motherboard while the other two are "bespoke". One of the attractive features of the Primo is that the Volumio OS is embedded and it functions as a local "hot spot" or as part of a network, so it can be accessed from any device capable of runnig a browser. From memory, which may be in error, the address is www.volumio.local. There is no need of additional controller apps as the Volumio interface is then available in the browser window. No additional bespoke apps or apps that can only run on iPads or iPhones!
There are also additional upgrades that can be added the to SoTM 200 series, which starts at a reasonable price, then you find with the addition of a number of other separate upgrades, a "tower" quickly forms adding significantly to size and cost. This is the reason for putting the SoTM devices to one side.
Like you I feel the S2 Ultra is overpriced, particularly given the insignificant cost of its basic building block, the RPi. On that basis along, in your shoes I would ask whether it really is a bargain. However, the benefit to me of "something in a box" is that if it fails there is a retailer or address to return it to. On the other hand if a RPi configuration does not work at the first time of asking, you are on your own. If I had grown up using Linux and understanding how to code, perhaps I might be looking towards a DIY set up - so I am willing to pay the cost penalty of getting someone to do it for me and put it in a convenient box. If you have the confidence to put the components together and make it work, it is an alternative pathway.
The Chord Qutest employs FPGA chips with great success and much approved by reviewers. The Volumio Motivo uses FPGA technology to buffer the incoming digital stream before handing it to the (internal) DAC or the digital outputs for external devices, The digital waveforms should be clean and virtually jitter free.
The cost of the Innuous devices is a disincentive, along with the perception that the software does not give the same control as Exact Audio Copy or similar packages. Again it is a solution "in a box".
Many thanks for sharing your experience of the SMSL SU-9. It was one of the devices on my wish list. However the signs for Gustard are not completely fortuitous as the manufacturer has no web presence and the only way to access drivers and other software is through retailers web sites. After reading Amir's review the data from testing the Gustard X-16 is on my wish list and is impressive on paper but will similar problems to the SMSL SU-9 be found in practice when you open the box? Products from Topping have robust build quality but there are postings where Topping DACs and headphone amplifiers have inexplicably "stopped, never to go again".
Coming full circle back to the question of a digital transport with streaming capability and also able to handle external hard drives. It really is an inside out type of approach where you start with all options and slowly discard the ones that fail to match your requirements. Somewhere else where we diverge is the sampling frequency as I am not sure I would notice the difference in sound quality between 192kHz and 384kHz, although there is an improvement between 44.1 kHz and 88.2kHz; in the same way you either notice an improvement in sound quality with MQA or you do not. Then there is the Roon question.
At this moment for a reasonable outlay I feel the Primo is better value for money than the S2 Ultra, as both are based on the same software package, and the Motivo is expensive for what it does, although it has a tablet-like graphical interface. What is needed is a digital transport designed from the same principles as any other audio-quality device, but not a DCS device that "costs the same as a car".
It seems like our paths and opinions almost converge on hardware and diverge on use. At the moment streaming is a foreign land for me and my "prime directive" is to render files held on external USB hard drives, rather than stream from a NAS drive, and avoid a laptop handing the music files. The thought of running a NAS drive 24/7 (or whatever) is not appealing. Also I like to "roll" external DACs, which explains my preference for dual-mono configurations. Having seen the shots of the interior of the current Auralic devices it seems like a lot of expensive empty space inside the box, particularly when compared to the Aries Mini. It is difficult to know the difference between the Auralic devices, except the price, and there are more reasonable products from the same part of the globe, such as those from Lumin. Each of the Auralic boxes only do part of what the Aries Mini did at a fraction of the cost - see if you can find on on Amazon or eBay ?
With this in mind, the Lindemann Bridge should be a natural fit, but it still requires a controller app running on a tablet. It also points to using the Primo as a transport, rather than using the internal DAC. There are a number of favourable reviews, complete with an EISA product award. More than one review has noted that the Pro-Ject Stream Box S2 Ultra runs somewhat on the warm side. The exaSound Sigma Streamer looks interesting at € 685.12, from https://gear.nativedsd.com/ based in the Netherlands. The site has other similar devices on offer, such as the Sonore microRendu v1.5 (€ 469), and a number of other devices which are worth looking at. As exaSound is a direct sales company this is the only other supplier and has the advantage it trades in the EU. Compared to the Primo the S2 Ultra is "expensive", which is also true of the Lindemann Bridge; it is based on a generic motherboard while the other two are "bespoke". One of the attractive features of the Primo is that the Volumio OS is embedded and it functions as a local "hot spot" or as part of a network, so it can be accessed from any device capable of runnig a browser. From memory, which may be in error, the address is www.volumio.local. There is no need of additional controller apps as the Volumio interface is then available in the browser window. No additional bespoke apps or apps that can only run on iPads or iPhones!
There are also additional upgrades that can be added the to SoTM 200 series, which starts at a reasonable price, then you find with the addition of a number of other separate upgrades, a "tower" quickly forms adding significantly to size and cost. This is the reason for putting the SoTM devices to one side.
Like you I feel the S2 Ultra is overpriced, particularly given the insignificant cost of its basic building block, the RPi. On that basis along, in your shoes I would ask whether it really is a bargain. However, the benefit to me of "something in a box" is that if it fails there is a retailer or address to return it to. On the other hand if a RPi configuration does not work at the first time of asking, you are on your own. If I had grown up using Linux and understanding how to code, perhaps I might be looking towards a DIY set up - so I am willing to pay the cost penalty of getting someone to do it for me and put it in a convenient box. If you have the confidence to put the components together and make it work, it is an alternative pathway.
The Chord Qutest employs FPGA chips with great success and much approved by reviewers. The Volumio Motivo uses FPGA technology to buffer the incoming digital stream before handing it to the (internal) DAC or the digital outputs for external devices, The digital waveforms should be clean and virtually jitter free.
The cost of the Innuous devices is a disincentive, along with the perception that the software does not give the same control as Exact Audio Copy or similar packages. Again it is a solution "in a box".
Many thanks for sharing your experience of the SMSL SU-9. It was one of the devices on my wish list. However the signs for Gustard are not completely fortuitous as the manufacturer has no web presence and the only way to access drivers and other software is through retailers web sites. After reading Amir's review the data from testing the Gustard X-16 is on my wish list and is impressive on paper but will similar problems to the SMSL SU-9 be found in practice when you open the box? Products from Topping have robust build quality but there are postings where Topping DACs and headphone amplifiers have inexplicably "stopped, never to go again".
Coming full circle back to the question of a digital transport with streaming capability and also able to handle external hard drives. It really is an inside out type of approach where you start with all options and slowly discard the ones that fail to match your requirements. Somewhere else where we diverge is the sampling frequency as I am not sure I would notice the difference in sound quality between 192kHz and 384kHz, although there is an improvement between 44.1 kHz and 88.2kHz; in the same way you either notice an improvement in sound quality with MQA or you do not. Then there is the Roon question.
At this moment for a reasonable outlay I feel the Primo is better value for money than the S2 Ultra, as both are based on the same software package, and the Motivo is expensive for what it does, although it has a tablet-like graphical interface. What is needed is a digital transport designed from the same principles as any other audio-quality device, but not a DCS device that "costs the same as a car".
Axel Endriss
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Just read the volumio motivo blurb. Looked interesting at first, then I saw something about using fgpa and ‘emancipating the Audio Quality outcome from the OS\CPU combination’.
What's wrong by the approach using FGPA?
I wouldn’t says it’s ‘wrong’, but as off the shelf dac chips have gone beyond the power needed to run audio applications including dsp I don’t see that it does anything except add cost and an aura of ‘not invented here’.
edited as I wrote ‘doc’ rather than ‘dac’.
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Welcome Aboard @Axel Endriss.
Axel Endriss
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Let's see how the Motivo performs
So far they are predicting:
- 104dB THD+N
- 110dB SNR
Lol, the Stack Link is John westlakes electronic design, it's the detox project that punters on the pfm forum sponsored that never materialised, the same thematic blocks are in his designs for the Project stream boxes too. Maybe theo helped with repackaging.
Axel Endriss
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To get you right: what you're saying is that an FPGA as a system on a chip (soc) demands more power as appropriate for audio applications?
What I’m really saying is something that Volumio say in their own press release:
‘Integrating Metaclock technology is being probably the biggest challenge Volumio Team has faced so far: since this technology has never been done before, in this way, there is no standard to follow nor any HOWTO nor literature. We are currently working hard to implement the very complex software integration to take the most out of this technology, without compromising on usability’.
This is the problem. Volumio is not there yet either in terms of its release engineering or its user experience. I am sympathetic-they are a small project and have set out to integrate multiple commercial (and therefore uncooperative) platforms into a single UI whilst maintaining releases for a couple of architectures. Their limited resources are already fighting on multiple fronts and are failing to achieve a standard of user experience that a non-technical customer base will accept for an appliance. I wish them luck, but in their shoes the last thing I would be doing is focusing on non standard hardware platforms.
They may of course envisage that the John Darkos of this world will love it and this will drive market penetration. All I can say is that we are already at the point where off the shelf socs and dacs can deliver performance beyond the thresholds of audibility. As the problems they have with their existing user experience are unrelated to the hardware that Volumio runs on, I don’t anticipate anything interesting to come out of this from a performance or use ability standpoint. I may be being harsh-maybe they are being forced by the John Darkos of this world to produce over priced , non generic hardware just to be taken seriously in a market where cost=better performance.
I am trying to stay away of USB and computers, to save some environment. Just a router with connected 8Tb hard drive (you nailed me here since it connected using USB) is my solution. All players are capable to use wifi and samba. Just listen to There Will Never Be Another You
Eliane Elias now.
Eliane Elias now.
Axel Endriss
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Hi & thx Phorize,
I see this challenge too, and I now also understood what you meant when you said "off-the-shelf DAC chips have exceeded the required power": At first I misunderstood and thought you meant power in the sense of physically required power of an SoC (here in Watts for the FGPA), but now I see that you meant this in the sense of performance. And yes, you may be right regarding THD+N and SNR, but isn't the use of the FPGA about something completely different (reduction/elimination of jitter)?
Jitter is a solved problem too, at least audible jitter. What ever the motivation for motivo is, it can’t be anything to do with improving sound. Meanwhile the volumio install breaks every few releases and the qobuz integration sucks. Maybe they anticipate that a device like this will give them more weight with the big streaming companies which will help better integration.
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