Uncoloured phono cartridges

[levimax]

The point @Vear is making is that in some cases a LP made using a fresh master tape and mastered by a skilled mastering engineer will sound better than a digital version of the same music made decades later from an old and damaged master tape by a hack mastering engineer. It definately happens in my experience'

 

[Sal1950]

The point @Vear is making is that in some cases a LP made using a fresh master tape and mastered by a skilled mastering engineer will sound better than a digital version of the same music made decades later from an old and damaged master tape by a hack mastering engineer. It definately happens in my experience'

Well dang, that kind of goes without saying doesn't it?
Garbage In - Garbage Out, there's no avoiding that is there?
I could build you the best balanced and blueprinted engine I know how, but if you pour in a pint of silica sand into the oil, it won't last too long or perform too well either.

 

[levimax]

Well dang, that kind of goes without saying doesn't it?
Garbage In - Garbage Out, there's no avoiding that is there?
I could build you the best balanced and blueprinted engine I know how, but if you pour in a pint of silica sand into the oil, it won't last too long or perform too well either.

If you had to chose between an engine that ran on gasoline only or one that could run on gasoline, diesel, kerosene, or used cooking oil and you were operating in a harsh and uncertain environment wouldn't you chose the more flexible engine? To me the weakest link in this hobby is trying to find good source material to play... it certainly makes more difference than SINAD 60dB vs SINAD 120dB. If you have a system that can stream, play Bluetooth, play CD's, play files, and play LP's I think you have a system that is more fun and useful than one that is limited. For me it is not about what format is "best" but rather what format has the best version of what and how I want to play the music at that time. I have LP's and CD's of the same music and I enjoy both depending on the circumstances and my mood.

 

[Sal1950]

I have LP's and CD's of the same music and I enjoy both depending on the circumstances and my mood.

I've never heard an LP with all of it's (pops&clicks, surface noise, wow & flutter, off center wow, outer to inner groove resolution changes, mono'd low frequencies, susceptibilities to airborne sound waves, and all it's other unavoidable technical weaknesses) that I'd rather listen to than a digital source any day. People have been drinking Mikey Fremers Kool-Aid for too long, it's way past time to wake up and face realities. The snake-oil peddlers got large numbers of people hooked on the idea that there's some magic dust in vinyl reproduction, when the only dust is that in the LP grooves causing a bunch of background noise. The HiFi retailers and media saw the sales numbers falling off a cliff and looked desperately for a savior, then found it in the mis-information blitz that created the Vinyl Revival. Now ya'll are spending thousands and thousands of dollars on a third rate, obsolete technology that belonged in the museums forty years ago...

 

[Robin L]

I've never heard an LP with all of it's (pops&clicks, surface noise, wow & flutter, off center wow, outer to inner groove resolution changes, mono'd low frequencies, susceptibilities to airborne sound waves, and all it's other unavoidable technical weaknesses) that I'd rather listen to than a digital source any day. People have been drinking Mikey Fremers Kool-Aid for too long, it's way past time to wake up and face realities. The snake-oil peddlers got large numbers of people hooked on the idea that there's some magic dust in vinyl reproduction, when the only dust is that in the LP grooves causing a bunch of background noise. The HiFi retailers and media saw the sales numbers falling off a cliff and looked desperately for a savior, then found it in the mis-information blitz that created the Vinyl Revival. Now ya'll are spending thousands and thousands of dollars on a third rate, obsolete technology that belonged in the museums forty years ago...
View attachment 94077

Yeah, but it can carry a tune.

I recall Tom Waits being asked what was his favorite way to listen to recorded music. He said "on a radio in somebody else's apartment, with a cracked speaker cone." And for some, the artifacts are part of the experience. I'd rather listen to digital playback myself, but my musical interests go back far into the past, and there's not one whole hell of a lot you can do with some really old recordings, save listen through the flaws. Anyway, there's plenty of nasty digital artifacts, like that skipping track from a CD I ripped a couple of years ago that I just heard skip right now.

 

[watchnerd]

Now ya'll are spending thousands and thousands of dollars on a third rate, obsolete technology that belonged in the museums forty years ago...

Yes.

That's part of the fun.

Or are we talking about mechanical watches?

Patek, Omega, Rolex, Piaget, etc, are all still selling.

 

[Sal1950]

Anyway, there's plenty of nasty digital artifacts, like that skipping track from a CD I ripped a couple of years ago that I just had to skip right now.

How do you stop that, bump the laser arm? LOL

 

[Sal1950]

Yes.

That's part of the fun.

Or are we talking about mechanical watches?

Patek, Omega, Rolex, Piaget, etc, are all still selling.

Is that what you got your vinyl for, to impress your friends with your disposable income?

 

[Robin L]

How do you stop that, bump the laser arm? LOL

Probably some crap on the playing side. Sometime CDs have manufacturing issues. CDs are almost, but not quite, fail-safe.

 

[watchnerd]

Is that what you got your vinyl for, to impress your friends with your disposable income?

No, just to please myself with mechanical art. Most don't know what it costs, including the missus.

Have to have some fun buying toys before I take a dirt nap and one can't rationally spend much on digital before hitting diminishing returns.

I'm not into boats, fly fishing, or golfing, and don't have room to store more than one purely recreational / collectible car. So there are limited options.

I've started recently buying water clocks and antique firearms, but you can make the same arguments about them being obsolete technologies.

 

[levimax]

I've never heard an LP with all of it's (pops&clicks, surface noise, wow & flutter, off center wow, outer to inner groove resolution changes, mono'd low frequencies, susceptibilities to airborne sound waves, and all it's other unavoidable technical weaknesses) that I'd rather listen to than a digital source any day. People have been drinking Mikey Fremers Kool-Aid for too long, it's way past time to wake up and face realities. The snake-oil peddlers got large numbers of people hooked on the idea that there's some magic dust in vinyl reproduction, when the only dust is that in the LP grooves causing a bunch of background noise. The HiFi retailers and media saw the sales numbers falling off a cliff and looked desperately for a savior, then found it in the mis-information blitz that created the Vinyl Revival. Now ya'll are spending thousands and thousands of dollars on a third rate, obsolete technology that belonged in the museums forty years ago...
View attachment 94077

People listen to LPs for a lot of different reasons... assuming they are all brain washed and wasting thousands of dollars is an oversimplification. I would say a more accurate assumption is that most people listening to LP's are having fun.

 

[Sal1950]

Have to have some fun buying toys before I take a dirt nap and one can't rationally spend much on digital before hitting diminishing returns.

There ya go bud, now you latched onto a good strong argument for vinyl, that one I fully understand.
I don't remember what your HiFi is, but if you don't have it, get yourself into fully immersive multich rig with Atmos & Auro. There you'll have something to really impress friends with. First time I spin Lichtmond - The Journey for them, their jaws drop. And they don't have to be a audiophile or music lover for that.

 

[Angsty]

Now ya'll are spending thousands and thousands of dollars on a third rate, obsolete technology that belonged in the museums forty years ago...

I resemble that remark! I've spent a couple (few?) thousand over the past several years on phono equipment and have reached my point of diminishing returns. I now plan to sit on that equipment investment and continue to work through the vinyl collection. I want to be one of those guys in twenty years talking about how they don't make turntables and styli like they used to.

 

[infinitesymphony]

This thread reminded me of my AT440MLa, which I bought new on sale for $85 from LP Gear. Now that cartridge is selling on eBay for more than a new VM540ML for some reason.

Loads of detail, but like others have said about certain AT ML cartridges, I found it to be bright in my setup.

 

[anmpr1]

This thread reminded me of my AT440MLa, which I bought new on sale for $85 from LP Gear. Loads of detail, but like others have said about certain AT ML cartridges, I found it to be bright in my setup.

The AT had a very rising high end. That is the 'detail' everyone heard. From David Rich (Secrets of Hi Fi site):

The AT440MLa had a rising high end starting at 2kHz and culmination in a 6dB peak above 10kHz. You only got that result if you terminated it at the low side of the recommended capacitive 100pf which is impossible to achieve unless your preamp allowed you to change the input capacitance. With a typical 250pf load, the peak became larger to about 15kHz when it started to roll off. Without external equalization this resulted in a bright cartridge. Some say the AT440MLa burns in with use and becomes less bright. It is the other way around. The user gets accustomed to the high-end push.

I bought mine for about $100.00 and used it sparingly as it was too hot sounding for daily use. I still have one (along with a spare stylus) in a drawer. If NOS are selling for a high price, then buyer beware. The market is often fickle and irrational. I've seen sellers asking several hundred dollars for NOS M97x. Another $100.00 cartridge when new.

 

[Angsty]

I've seen sellers asking several hundred dollars for NOS M97x. Another $100.00 cartridge when new.

I have seen that, too. I was astonished. As of last year, it was still a “recommended component” by a leading audiophile magazine, despite being discontinued!

 

[infinitesymphony]

The AT had a very rising high end. That is the 'detail' everyone heard. From David Rich (Secrets of Hi Fi site):

The AT440MLa had a rising high end starting at 2kHz and culmination in a 6dB peak above 10kHz. You only got that result if you terminated it at the low side of the recommended capacitive 100pf which is impossible to achieve unless your preamp allowed you to change the input capacitance. With a typical 250pf load, the peak became larger to about 15kHz when it started to roll off. Without external equalization this resulted in a bright cartridge. Some say the AT440MLa burns in with use and becomes less bright. It is the other way around. The user gets accustomed to the high-end push.

I bought mine for about $100.00 and used it sparingly as it was too hot sounding for daily use. I still have one (along with a spare stylus) in a drawer. If NOS are selling for a high price, then buyer beware. The market is often fickle and irrational. I've seen sellers asking several hundred dollars for NOS M97x. Another $100.00 cartridge when new.

That makes total sense to me. My goal/hope was to "read past" the damage done by conical styluses to used records and the AT440MLa seemed to succeed in that regard, although it was also great at finding whatever dust was in there too. It was between the AT440MLa and the M97x at the time and it looked like the ATs were about to shoot up in price. Then the vinyl craze hit hard.

Are there any $100 cartridges worth recommending these days, or have all of those carts moved into the $250 range?

Are there AT MLs that don't have the HF peak, or suffer less from it?

Edit: Even LP Gear are selling the AT440MLa for $390. Yikes!

 

[anmpr1]

My goal/hope was to "read past" the damage done by conical styluses...
Are there any $100 cartridges worth recommending these days, or have all of those carts moved into the $250 range?

Two of my cartridges have ball point pen diamonds--one tracks at 2g and the other about 2.75g. They are some of the best sounding cartridges I own. I guess they 'damage' the records to a degree. But my records are mostly old and It's not a concern to me. I've gotten over the neurosis of worrying about the best way to play records. I guess I just like to look at something turning around.

As far as inexpensive cartridges? Maybe something like the Ortofon Super OM10. I think it would be difficult to go wrong with that for less than a Ben Franklin.

Joe Grado's kid still makes a cartridge selling for under a hundred dollars. Unlike Ortofon I don't have any experience with them. I should buy one to find out, probably. I know Grado the company has been making cartridges almost forever.

A/T has some inexpensive cartridges, but then you are back to the A/T sound. FWIW, I have a VM740ML which is a $300.00 item. It sounds similar to the 440ML. Not quite as 'hot' but really too aggressive for my liking. So it sits in a drawer, too. What America needs is a new Shure V15xMR, or a Stanton 881S. LOL

 

[a2lowvw]

I honestly think the younger generations are driving the biggest demand for vinyl. Our collection started with 186 albums that were left to us by my in-laws and a gift from a family friend (we are now up to 228 albums). Listening to albums is kind of like shooting old guns, while new guns can do it better the old ones are still fun to play around with.

I should have included that I bought a turntable for our anniversary in early August so we could finally listen to the boxes of old albums we have been storing for years. In the 100 days since I've bought 42 albums (mostly used).

 

[infinitesymphony]

In college, every time I walked past the saxophone studio someone was transcribing a solo from vinyl, needle dropping over and over. Some ideas transcend decades and formats even if they only have one release.