Uncoloured phono cartridges

[Sal1950]

After my first Technics direct drive I never went back to belt for the daily driver.

Give me a classic Linn Sondek or Oracle any day. For that matter a AR-ES from the 1980s is just fine too.
Now these are real TT's, not the Japanese junk. LOL

 

[Robin L]

Give me a classic Linn Sondek or Oracle any day. For that matter a AR-ES from the 1980s is just fine too.
Now these are real TT's, not the Japanese junk. LOL

Great, until the suspended subchassis goes out of wack, and it will. These babies know how to oscillate. The Technics turntables make for a much more stable platform.

 

[watchnerd]

I have a Nakaoka MP-300 and love it, but I still want a Koetsu or Lyra. I can't stop wondering how much better it would be, or just different. Someone asked the owner of Nagaoka which was the best cartridge they made is. He said he liked the MP-300, so I bought one. It sounds stunning at times. Other times the recording or record just sucks and there is nothing you can do about that.

I know I tease the vinyl guys here a lot but speaking seriously, spending that kind of money on a needle is just nuts. I guess if that amount of money is pocket change to you it's fine, but the reality of the situation is that the same master avavailable digitally thru a $100 DAC would destroy the LP for sound quality. I just don't get it.

If maximizing objective sonic ROI is the sole criteria, vinyl at any price point loses to even mid fi digital playing FLAC.

But I'd never buy a Koetsu or Lyra because if "best possible analog" is your goal, reel to reel blows vinyl away.

RTR is even more of a money pit than LP, but at least the quality is superior to LP.

(still flawed compared to digital, of course)

And RTR investments don't wear out as much or get damaged as easily as an expensive cartridge.

 

[anmpr1]

RTR is even more of a money pit than LP, but at least the quality is superior to LP.

Open reel is a format I'll never again love. Worse than an ex-wife. It can offer fine sound, no doubt about it, however if quality is superior to LP, then that statement must be highly qualified, and kept in perspective.

First issue is, of course, hardware. It is easy to buy a brand new, off the shelf, factory warranted, world class record player. Impossible to do that with open reel tape decks. The most one could hope for is either finding something NOS that's been sitting in a storeroom or attic for the past thirty or forty years, or a professionaly refurbished model. Let's say you can find a refurbished, mechanically top tier machine. Then, you ask about the condition of the playback/record heads. Everything mechanical can be in like new condition, but if the heads are shot then you ask whether it is possible to source a replacement? At that point you're kind of like the petty criminal staring down the barrel of Dirty Harry's 44 magnum... how lucky do you feel?

An additional hardware concern is setting proper bias along with head alignment. That procedure makes aligning a phono cartridge a piece of cake.

http://blackmerdesign.com/resources/how-to-bias-analog-tape-recorders/

Second, there is the question of sources. That is, what's on the tape, where did it come from, who made it, and how old is it? If you are recording your own material, then first generation open reel could be first rate. For prerecorded, if you have access to open reel tape masters, or one offs, then the quality could also be very high. If you are playing the once commercially available open reel tapes now found at Goodwill stores, then good luck with that.

If you are dubbing ready made sources then there are further questions. If the source is a digital file then the obvious question is, "Why would anyone want that?" If the source is an LP, it is questionable whether the sonic quality will be as good as the original LP, although under the right conditions it could equal it. If the source is FM (or other broadcast radio) then the tape machine's overall ability could exceed the parameters of the broadcast source (on an absolute level), but in practice you'd only be capturing whatever comes out of your tuner, so at best it would be a wash.

Third, by comparison, a fifty or sixty year old LP in mint condition is likely going to sound better on a modern record player, than a fifty or sixty year old tape is going to sound on a 'new' refurbished deck. When I was in to the open reel scene, it was not uncommon for me to purchase NOS or 'lightly used' reels... often they would not play because of tape shedding, sticking, frayed edges and so forth. And that was 30 years ago.

I do agree that open reel is a money funnel that has the potential to dwarf the LP hobbyist. In fact, all things considered, open reel makes record player hobbyists look like pikers!

 

[watchnerd]

Second, there is the question of sources. That is, what's on the tape, where did it come from, who made it, and how old is it? If you are recording your own material, then first generation open reel could be first rate. For prerecorded, if you have access to open reel tape masters, or one offs, then the quality could also be very high. If you are playing the once commercially available open reel tapes now found at Goodwill stores, then good luck with that.

...

I do agree that open reel is a money funnel that has the potential to dwarf the LP hobbyist. In fact, all things considered, open reel makes record player hobbyists look like pikers!

My tapes are either current production Analogue Productions / Ultra Analog, Tape Project, or broadcast master tapes, all 15 IPS.

Quality is excellent.

Pretty pricey though.

For alignment and bias, I have several MRL calibration tapes in both NAB and CCIR, at various fluxivity levels, and the gear (oscope, signal generator, DMM, etc) to do the calibration.

 

[Robin L]

Open reel is a format I'll never again love. Worse than an ex-wife. It can offer fine sound, no doubt about it, however if quality is superior to LP, then that statement must be highly qualified, and kept in perspective.

First issue is, of course, hardware. It is easy to buy a brand new, off the shelf, factory warranted, world class record player. Impossible to do that with open reel tape decks. The most one could hope for is either finding something NOS that's been sitting in a storeroom or attic for the past thirty or forty years, or a professionaly refurbished model. Let's say you can find a refurbished, mechanically top tier machine. Then, you ask about the condition of the playback/record heads. Everything mechanical can be in like new condition, but if the heads are shot then you ask whether it is possible to source a replacement? At that point you're kind of like the petty criminal staring down the barrel of Dirty Harry's 44 magnum... how lucky do you feel?

An additional hardware concern is setting proper bias along with head alignment. That procedure makes aligning a phono cartridge a piece of cake.

http://blackmerdesign.com/resources/how-to-bias-analog-tape-recorders/

Second, there is the question of sources. That is, what's on the tape, where did it come from, who made it, and how old is it? If you are recording your own material, then first generation open reel could be first rate. For prerecorded, if you have access to open reel tape masters, or one offs, then the quality could also be very high. If you are playing the once commercially available open reel tapes now found at Goodwill stores, then good luck with that.

If you are dubbing ready made sources then there are further questions. If the source is a digital file then the obvious question is, "Why would anyone want that?" If the source is an LP, it is questionable whether the sonic quality will be as good as the original LP, although under the right conditions it could equal it. If the source is FM (or other broadcast radio) then the tape machine's overall ability could exceed the parameters of the broadcast source (on an absolute level), but in practice you'd only be capturing whatever comes out of your tuner, so at best it would be a wash.

Third, by comparison, a fifty or sixty year old LP in mint condition is likely going to sound better on a modern record player, than a fifty or sixty year old tape is going to sound on a 'new' refurbished deck. When I was in to the open reel scene, it was not uncommon for me to purchase NOS or 'lightly used' reels... often they would not play because of tape shedding, sticking, frayed edges and so forth. And that was 30 years ago.

I do agree that open reel is a money funnel that has the potential to dwarf the LP hobbyist. In fact, all things considered, open reel makes record player hobbyists look like pikers!

This reminds of when I was at KPFA, they had old Ampex machines all over the place. Jim Bennett did a good job of keeping all these old, tube, decks in proper working order. By the time the station got a sparkly new Otari r to r, DAT machines [Panasonic 3700] were all over the studios. I was gone by 1998, so don't know what they're up to now. I remember my partner donating a VPI record cleaner to the station, they never used it.

 

[StefaanE]

Second, there is the question of sources. That is, what's on the tape, where did it come from, who made it, and how old is it? If you are recording your own material, then first generation open reel could be first rate. For prerecorded, if you have access to open reel tape masters, or one offs, then the quality could also be very high.

You don’t buy a reel-to-reel deck for the large selection of pre-recorded source material. You buy it for the joy of operating a precision apparatus, and maintaining it is part of the experience. In the halcyon days of LPs, a reel-to-reel deck served to make backups of your fragile records — a friend from the Gregorian choir I was a member of had a collection of more than 7,000 LPs, and he used to copy each new acquisition on tape before filing it away. Nowadays, if copies are made, it’s FLAC files on a NAS.
I wanted to follow in my friend’s footsteps and bought his Revox when he upgraded, but being a mostly broke student, I had to chose between buying records or buying tapes. I ended up buying a bunch of Shamrock el-cheapo reels, so my backups turned out to be rather short-lived as the substrate and the oxide tended to part company.

 

[watchnerd]

You don’t buy a reel-to-reel deck for the large selection of pre-recorded source material. You buy it for the joy of operating a precision apparatus, and maintaining it is part of the experience.

Very true.

My LP collection is ~450 albums / box sets, while my tape collection is a mere 15 albums.

I do bifurcate by genre -- I collect classical only on tape.

 

[Helicopter]

Not even a little bit.

I use Technics SL 1200s, so the only thing I do is change cartridges, and lately, only when they no longer work properly. I used to play around with different carts, but I am very happy with AT microline and LPgear Vividline, so now I never really experiment or tweak. I have a big collection or headshells and carts and a pile of TTs, mostly Technics, DD and BD, but no need to mess any more. If I do play with something now, it is a repair on my workbench and will never go into my systems. Like a TT for a relative or whatever.

 

[anmpr1]

You ... buy a reel-to-reel deck for ... the joy of operating a precision apparatus...

I understand that sentiment, and can appreciate it--I mean, keeping the old stuff alive. Personally I get off just looking at the inside of a Studer or Revox deck. The engineering and skill of manufacturing involved.

However, 'joy' can quickly turn to frustration, or worse, with those monsters. I am happy if they still make someone happy. For me? I never felt as happy as when I sold all my machines and tapes. That was a joyful moment for me!

Anecdote 1: I sold my last open reel deck to a colleague at work. Actually, I pretty much just threw it in as a freebie because he bought an amp and tuner and speakers from me. He just wanted it in his system because it looked cool. I don't think he ever used it. Not much looks cooler than a large open reel deck.

Anecdote 2: A guy I knew wanted to sell his B77. He knew I had one, thought I might like another, so he gave me first right of refusal, telling me to make him an offer. I replied that I'd take it off his hands for $400.00. I might have said five hundred dollars, but I think I said four. These were running about two large, new, and his was lightly used. Not abused. I'm sorry to say that he was offended, and almost angrily replied that he'd sooner throw it in the trash before he'd sell it for that price.

A year or so later, after newspaper ads were not productive for him (this was pre-Internet, pre-ebay days) he contacted me asking if I was still offering that price? By then I had sold all my tape decks and frankly wasn't interested. However I remembered what he first said to me--his reaction to my offer, so I told him to go ahead and throw it away and I'd think about dumpster diving for it, if I had some time!

All that said, my favorite machine was a lowly consumer oriented Pioneer RT-701, which was an ergonomic little thing, easy to use, and made decent dubs of friends records. Better sounding (7ips) than the expensive high-end Nakamichi 1000 cassette deck, IMO. I used my ten inch machines mostly to record off air--at 3ips they generally sounded as good as FM broadcasts, and I could get a Met opera on one side of Maxell UD 3600. Wagner of course required use of both sides (quarter track).

 

[Robin L]

I understand that sentiment, and can appreciate it--I mean, keeping the old stuff alive. Personally I get off just looking at the inside of a Studer or Revox deck. The engineering and skill of manufacturing involved.

However, 'joy' can quickly turn to frustration, or worse, with those monsters. I am happy if they still make someone happy. For me? I never felt as happy as when I sold all my machines and tapes. That was a joyful moment for me!

Anecdote 1: I sold my last open reel deck to a colleague at work. Actually, I pretty much just threw it in as a freebie because he bought an amp and tuner and speakers from me. He just wanted it in his system because it looked cool. I don't think he ever used it. Not much looks cooler than a large open reel deck.

Anecdote 2: A guy I knew wanted to sell his B77. He knew I had one, thought I might like another, so he gave me first right of refusal, telling me to make him an offer. I replied that I'd take it off his hands for $400.00. I might have said five hundred dollars, but I think I said four. These were running about two large, new, and his was lightly used. Not abused. I'm sorry to say that he was offended, and almost angrily replied that he'd sooner throw it in the trash before he'd sell it for that price.

A year or so later, after newspaper ads were not productive for him (this was pre-Internet, pre-ebay days) he contacted me asking if I was still offering that price? By then I had sold all my tape decks and frankly wasn't interested. However I remembered what he first said to me--his reaction to my offer, so I told him to go ahead and throw it away and I'd think about dumpster diving for it, if I had some time!

All that said, my favorite machine was a lowly consumer oriented Pioneer RT-701, which was an ergonomic little thing, easy to use, and made decent dubs of friends records. Better sounding (7ips) than the expensive high-end Nakamichi 1000 cassette deck, IMO. I used my ten inch machines mostly to record off air--at 3ips they generally sounded as good as FM broadcasts, and I could get a Met opera on one side of Maxell UD 3600. Wagner of course required use of both sides (quarter track).

I had a Tascam 32, 1/2 track, 7 1/2 & 15 ips. Hated it. I left it with a musician who gave me shelter when I was homeless. Kept the reels & pancakes of the 1/4 inch tape. Now it's about 20 years on. When I moved a year and a half ago, I asked all my friends if they wanted the tape, 10 & 1/2 reels, pancakes. Nobody wanted them. Had to throw them away. I left out as things we had to leave behind piled up in front of the house. Someone doubtless took away the reels for the metal.

 

[Bald1]

My DL 304 came with the print out, it's very flat to 20k, then rises slightly to 50k. I never loved that cart for whatever reason though.

Interesting. I'm fond of both my Denon DL-304 and DL-103D cartridges. I use a DIY Cinemag CMQEE-3440A StepUp transformer with my George Merrill modified The AR Turntable with Sumiko Premier MMT tonearm.
Started with a DL-301 back in 1983 and have preferred Denon MCs ever since although I'll admit to experimenting with other MC and MM carts over the years.

 

[watchnerd]

Anecdote 2: A guy I knew wanted to sell his B77. He knew I had one, thought I might like another, so he gave me first right of refusal, telling me to make him an offer. I replied that I'd take it off his hands for $400.00. I might have said five hundred dollars, but I think I said four. These were running about two large, new, and his was lightly used. Not abused. I'm sorry to say that he was offended, and almost angrily replied that he'd sooner throw it in the trash before he'd sell it for that price.

Decent condition B77 high speed 15 IPS decks go for $1000+ now.

My PR-99s are worth about twice what I paid for them.

We'll see how my recently acquired Studer A807 does over the next few years.

 

[Sal1950]

He just wanted it in his system because it looked cool. I don't think he ever used it. Not much looks cooler than a large open reel deck.

That's a fact and truth be told, probably the main reason I bought my Pioneer RT 707 back in the day when it was current. I never made a live tape with it for 1. a lack of any real opportunity, 2. never owned decent mic's to do it with. The live recording thing was the only path back then that would give you something to play back that would be superior in SQ to an LP. I belonged to a tape of the month club, but they were all 3 3/4 ips and SQ was lacking. When I sold it some 10 years later the heads were still like new on it. LOL
I could be wrong but I believe the vast majority of RTR guys back in the 70-80s would say the same if they were honest.

 

[anmpr1]

Decent condition B77 high speed 15 IPS decks go for $1000+ now. My PR-99s are worth about twice what I paid for them. We'll see how my recently acquired Studer A807 does over the next few years.

The Internet changed the market for old stuff. Now, with on line marketplaces it's a lot easier to sell--post pictures and write something up about the item. Before that, you had to use a newspaper classified ad, and were charged by the word. You'd get a 3 day 10 word ad, and that was about it. If you lived in a large city your options were better, since you might have been able to take it to an exchange store. Or a dealer might take it in on consignment. Pawn shops always had a Teac or two on their shelves.

Your machines are high-end and pro-oriented--something you'd more likely find in a studio, post production facility or radio station, than a living room. So I'd imagine they would hold value a lot better than the run of the mill Teac or Akai, which were good for a few years and then prone to need service. Even for someone who only wanted something to look at, those would be top dogs.

 

[anmpr1]

Interesting. I'm fond of both my Denon DL-304 and DL-103D cartridges.

I always had a 103D in rotation, until you couldn't find them anymore. Denon used to offer a 'trade in' service so your initial investment was partially recouped when it was time for a retip. Not anymore.

 

[Angsty]

I know I tease the vinyl guys here a lot but speaking seriously, spending that kind of money on a needle is just nuts.

The price I saw on LP Gear for a Nagaoka MP-300 was $600. That’s roughly in line with the MC cartridges like the Hana SH at $750. I agree; that’s expensive for a component that will wear out and require stylus replacement.

However, not everyone wants to spend the time to digitize their vinyl collection and $600 will not replace many vinyl collections with CDs. Even streaming services can be catalog limited at CD quality and above.

So, the reproduction improvement above lower cost MMs like the Nagaoka MP-110 or Ortofon 2M Red might be considered a value-based decision. Having moved up from a 2M Blue to a Hana SL, I can attest to a satisfying difference. But, I also didn’t pay $750 for the Hana and I also bought a $129 DAC.

 

[Angsty]

I always had a 103D in rotation, until you couldn't find them anymore. Denon used to offer a 'trade in' service so your initial investment was partially recouped when it was time for a retip. Not anymore.

There are really good re-tippers out there that can renew your 103D for around $200, sometimes less.

 

[sergeauckland]

That's a fact and truth be told, probably the main reason I bought my Pioneer RT 707 back in the day when it was current. I never made a live tape with it for 1. a lack of any real opportunity, 2. never owned decent mic's to do it with. The live recording thing was the only path back then that would give you something to play back that would be superior in SQ to an LP. I belonged to a tape of the month club, but they were all 3 3/4 ips and SQ was lacking. When I sold it some 10 years later the heads were still like new on it. LOL
I could be wrong but I believe the vast majority of RTR guys back in the 70-80s would say the same if they were honest.

As someone who did a lot of work on tape back in the 1970s, absolutely. Tape was a real pain, machines had to be lined up constantly if they were to keep working to spec. We realigned our Philips and Ampex machines every morning, checked speed, azimuth, W&F, EQ and Dolby levels every morning, and on hot days, (we had no aircon in the studios) we might check the alignment after lunch. The tape duplicators we used were an employment protection scheme as you couldn't take your eyes of them for very long before something needed some realignment. The tape itself wasn't stable, you could just about get away with different reels from the same batch without realigning, but use a reel from a different batch of the same type, and something would change needing a tweak to bias, sensitivity and EQ.

In the 1980s, I bought myself a Nakamichi cassette recorder, and that too needed constant attention if I was to keep Dolby tracking to 1dB and tape formulations weren't stable. Made worse by manufacturers constantly bringing out 'new, improved' versions which weren't any better, just different, and we all know that different = better in the minds of the public. It was a pain having to realign the machine for a change of tape batch. Maybe my employer at the time was finnicky, (actually, the Studio Manager was the one that insisted on properly aligned tape machines) and that carried on to my own stuff at home, but I was mightily glad to give up tape for digital recording as soon as I could. I bought a Digigram PCMCIA sound card for my laptop, and never looked back. The card at the time cost more than the Nakamichi, but it was worth every penny. Better results and no tweaking.

For nostalgia, and for playing stuff I only have on LP, my turntables are retro enough. Tape is just one PITA too much.

S.

 

[anmpr1]

There are really good re-tippers out there that can renew your 103D for around $200, sometimes less.

I had a gentleman retip my DL-160 for not much money. I think he charged $150.00 to install a new .2 x .7 elliptical. Could have been an .3 x .7; I'd have to check. I don't know how he does it, or what his background is. Phono cartridge repair is not a skill that just anyone or their brother figures out at home, and in their spare time, I wouldn't think.

It sounds fine, but whether it is as good as the original? I don't have an original to compare, but again it sounds fine. However that is, with an aftermarket mod you are really on your own. The folks at Soundsmith have some good reviews. I've not used them. Below is their price sheet, which doesn't seem exorbitant:

Aluminum Alloy Cantilever; Nude Hyper- Elliptical Diamond $200
Sapphire with laser drilled mounted low Mass Contact line stylus $299
Ruby Cantilever / Nude Contact Line Diamond $350
Ruby Cantilever / Optimized Contour Nude Contact Line Diamond $399
Boron Cantilever with Nude Contact Line $450