Uncoloured phono cartridges

[JP]

The graphs are pretty darn similar.

Do they sound similar?

No complaints with the 305.

 

[levimax]

While there may be more to the sound of a TT than just FR (tracking and distortion most likely have a role) I still think FR is the biggest part of it. In order to "measure" the differences in mastering I have been using Adobe Audition's "Frequency Analysis" tool after adjusting the files to equal loudness. This clearly shows differences in FR between different mastering's so I thought I would try the same thing with different Carts on the same song and then compare to a CD just for fun. See below, I made needle drops of the same song "Brown Sugar" from a clean copy of an original UK A3/B4 LP using 3 different carts (one different cart / TT combination). I have measured the SL-1300 / Denon 103R with a test record and it measures fairly "flat" on the "test sweep" so I would consider that the reference.

Looking at the chart my interpretations are:

1. The CD has added bass and treble boost.... so all the "complaints" about boosted bass and treble on CD's are "true" in this case.
2. The AT VM540ML deserves it's reputation as being "bright".
3. The plastic SL-DD22 TT with a lowly P24 cart with a fancy SAS NEO stylus (line contact/ruby cantilever) holds it's own. Previously I had measured the distortion on this combination and it was lower than the VM540ML and the Denon 103R.

I am starting to think the differences between TT's and carts is vastly overrated (like everything else in the Audio World) and if you can find a TT/ Arm/ Cart combination that is fairly flat, or even measure it and EQ to flat, you will be able to get what LP's have to offer without spending a fortune.

 

[watchnerd]

While there may be more to the sound of a TT than just FR (tracking and distortion most likely have a role) I still think FR is the biggest part of it. In order to "measure" the differences in mastering I have been using Adobe Audacities "Frequency Analysis" tool after adjusting the files to equal loudness. This clearly shows differences in FR between different mastering's so I thought I would try the same thing with different Carts on the same song and then compare to a CD just for fun. See below, I made needle drops of the same song "Brown Sugar" from a clean copy of an original UK A3/B4 LP using 3 different carts (one different cart / TT combination). I have measured the SL-1300 / Denon 103R with a test record and it measures fairly "flat" on the "test sweep" so I would consider that the reference.

Looking at the chart my interpretations are:

1. The CD has added bass and treble boost.... so all the "complaints" about boosted bass and treble on CD's are "true" in this case.
2. The AT VM540ML deserves it's reputation as being "bright".
3. The plastic SL-DD22 TT with a lowly P24 cart with a fancy SAS NEO stylus (line contact/ruby cantilever) holds it's own. Previously I had measured the distortion on this combination and it was lower than the VM540ML and the Denon 103R.

I am starting to think the differences between TT's and carts is vastly overrated (like everything else in the Audio World) and if you can find a TT/ Arm/ Cart combination that is fairly flat, or even measure it and EQ to flat, you will be able to get what LP's have to offer without spending a fortune.

View attachment 109676

Were these made with speakers on or speakers off?

 

[Robin L]

1. The CD has added bass and treble boost.... so all the "complaints" about boosted bass and treble on CD's are "true" in this case.
2. The AT VM540ML deserves it's reputation as being "bright".
3. The plastic SL-DD22 TT with a lowly P24 cart with a fancy SAS NEO stylus (line contact/ruby cantilever) holds it's own. Previously I had measured the distortion on this combination and it was lower than the VM540ML and the Denon 103R.

I am starting to think the differences between TT's and carts is vastly overrated (like everything else in the Audio World) and if you can find a TT/ Arm/ Cart combination that is fairly flat, or even measure it and EQ to flat, you will be able to get what LP's have to offer without spending a fortune.

View attachment 109676

Conversely, one could say it was not possible to master the LP with the bass & treble energy of the master tape. Which is why the original issues of The Beatles had different EQ in the 2009 masterings. This relates to many other remasters of classic rock, just ask Led Zeppelin.

 

[levimax]

Were these made with speakers on or speakers off?

Speakers off..... that is the only way I can do needle drops currently. I understand the potential isolation issues but at least these measurements are consistently done. It would be interesting to see the difference with loud music playing... I am sure the plastic TT would "change" more than some others but it would depend on a lot of factors.

 

[MusicNBeer]

Conversely, one could say it was not possible to master the LP with the bass & treble energy of the master tape. Which is why the original issues of The Beatles had different EQ in the 2009 masterings. This relates to many other remasters of classic rock, just ask Led Zeppelin.

Which Zeppelin albums are you referring? I've heard kind of the opposite with regards to Zep II. The original RL vinyl master is supposed to have more dynamics and bass than any subsequent vinyl or CD version. I've never heard it so I have no idea.

Also, can't the vinyl mastering engineer just lower the volume of the midrange slightly and get the desired frequency response? Yes, SNR suffers slightly but that seems way less of an issue than midrange forward frequency response.

 

[watchnerd]

Speakers off..... that is the only way I can do needle drops currently. I understand the potential isolation issues but at least these measurements are consistently done. It would be interesting to see the difference with loud music playing... I am sure the plastic TT would "change" more than some others but it would depend on a lot of factors.

Rips I've done with speakers on vs off, even with the same cart, sound pretty different.

Cart / arm / TT resonance differences being real things, I think the real-time playback differences when playing music with speakers on may have more of an impact on carts sounding different than pure sweeps with speakers off might indicate, at least below the treble.

I've done things as simple as change arm board bushing / isolation elements and had it measurably (shifting the subsonic resonance frequency and changing the Q factor) and audibly change the bass.

 

[levimax]

Conversely, one could say it was not possible to master the LP with the bass & treble energy of the master tape. Which is why the original issues of The Beatles had different EQ in the 2009 masterings. This relates to many other remasters of classic rock, just ask Led Zeppelin.

I will agree with you on the bass but LP's have no problem with the treble.... as you know they can go way higher than a CD in FR. I agree that remasters are different than the original LP's and that is probably the biggest thing I like about original LP's. Modern remasters make everything sound like a new recording... great if you like the "new normal" of bright and highly compressed dynamic range but I usually prefer the original mastering's probably because I grew up with them.

 

[Robin L]

Which Zeppelin albums are you referring? I've heard kind of the opposite with regards to Zep II. The original RL vinyl master is supposed to have more dynamics and bass than any subsequent vinyl or CD version. I've never heard it so I have no idea.

Also, can't the vinyl mastering engineer just lower the volume of the midrange slightly and get the desired frequency response? Yes, SNR suffers slightly but that seems way less of an issue than midrange forward frequency response.

"US 1st pressing (with the 1841 Broadway address on the labels), featuring Robert Ludwig's "hot" mastering on both sides. These were withdrawn early because the high bass levels caused low-grade cartridges to mistrack, leading people to return the album on the belief that it was defective. Another engineer was then hired to recut a much less "hot" version of the album, and that is the far more common version "

Led Zeppelin - Led Zeppelin II (1969, "RL" Cut, PR - Presswell Pressing, Vinyl) | Discogs

The mastering engineer usually sums bass to mono, reduces bass and modifies treble. Cutting midrange won't work, there has to be limiting on both bass and treble or major reduction of overall levels with LP issues compared to master tapes. Not an issue with digital versions. The Robert Ludwig mastering has become a collectible. It's possible to get more bass on a digital remaster than on an LP master. Including this one.

I will agree with you on the bass but LP's have no problem with the treble.... as you know they can go way higher than a CD in FR. I agree that remasters are different than the original LP's and that is probably the biggest thing I like about original LP's. Modern remasters make everything sound like a new recording... great if you like the "new normal" of bright and highly compressed dynamic range but I usually prefer the original mastering's probably because I grew up with them.

LPs have problems in the treble, will easily distort if treble levels are too hot, sibilants have to be gain limited in LP mastering. The treble potential above 20khz isn't very meaningful, most microphones don't capture much over 20k, most ears are lucky to make it to 15khz. And the ability to encode/replay the upper octaves reduces as the stylus approaches the deadwax.

 

[levimax]

Cart / arm / TT resonance differences being real things, I think the real-time playback differences when playing music with speakers on may have more of an impact on carts sounding different than pure sweeps with speakers off might indicate, at least below the treble.

Much of the Cart/ arm / TT resonances come into play from just playing the record. If loud enough of course some acoustical feedback will occur but I am not sure which is dominant. Just for fun I was thinking that the acoustical changes from loudspeaker feedback have changed with DSP. In my case I use FIR RIAA EQ and a strong FIR rumble filter (Not on these needle drops) so there is about a 3 second delay .....not sure if that is better or worse than no delay but I got to think it is different.

 

[watchnerd]

Much of the Cart/ arm / TT resonances come into play from just playing the record. If loud enough of course some acoustical feedback will occur but I am not sure which is dominant.

This has been studied, actually.

@Frank Dernie did test work in that area.

Acoustical feedback added a reverb effect.

 

[BDWoody]

The plots I posted in #277 was also a Technics P-mount. When I get around to it I'll find or remake my measurements of the P205CMK3 and MK4 and the P310MC.

View attachment 109558

If you get a good line on any more of those Pmount's, let me know. I have the 310mc, and the 205mk3 that came with the SL-15 (couple of 312's some others I've picked up), but happy to find more good ones.

Here's the first rip I did with the 310mc on the SL-10.

Steely Dan
VIMX-1514
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14rZfC9qu8xcRiSblY2g2KyEgura-abRK/view

I need to figure out how to measure these things...just getting started taking it more seriously.

 

[pma]

This is an uncoloured phono cartridge

 

[levimax]

Which Zeppelin albums are you referring? I've heard kind of the opposite with regards to Zep II. The original RL vinyl master is supposed to have more dynamics and bass than any subsequent vinyl or CD version. I've never heard it so I have no idea.

Also, can't the vinyl mastering engineer just lower the volume of the midrange slightly and get the desired frequency response? Yes, SNR suffers slightly but that seems way less of an issue than midrange forward frequency response.

I have the double RL "Grail" version of LZII. I can't say it is technically more accurate than any other version but it is the loudest record I have (I use it to set my ADC levels) and the combination of Ludwig's mastering moves and a fresh master tape do make it different than other versions. Mine even skips on the loud sections of "Whole Lotta Love" on any TT I have tried (probably damaged). On the other hand if you take a needle drop and level match it to ABX against other versions then a lot of the differences disappear. All in all way over rated but fun with a good story behind it.

 

[MusicNBeer]

"US 1st pressing (with the 1841 Broadway address on the labels), featuring Robert Ludwig's "hot" mastering on both sides. These were withdrawn early because the high bass levels caused low-grade cartridges to mistrack, leading people to return the album on the belief that it was defective.

Good point, it was pulled quickly. I have the 80 Diament mastered CD of II and its pretty thunderous. Thanks for the explanations.

 

[Tom C]

While there may be more to the sound of a TT than just FR (tracking and distortion most likely have a role) I still think FR is the biggest part of it. In order to "measure" the differences in mastering I have been using Adobe Audition's "Frequency Analysis" tool after adjusting the files to equal loudness. This clearly shows differences in FR between different mastering's so I thought I would try the same thing with different Carts on the same song and then compare to a CD just for fun. See below, I made needle drops of the same song "Brown Sugar" from a clean copy of an original UK A3/B4 LP using 3 different carts (one different cart / TT combination). I have measured the SL-1300 / Denon 103R with a test record and it measures fairly "flat" on the "test sweep" so I would consider that the reference.

Looking at the chart my interpretations are:

1. The CD has added bass and treble boost.... so all the "complaints" about boosted bass and treble on CD's are "true" in this case.
2. The AT VM540ML deserves it's reputation as being "bright".
3. The plastic SL-DD22 TT with a lowly P24 cart with a fancy SAS NEO stylus (line contact/ruby cantilever) holds it's own. Previously I had measured the distortion on this combination and it was lower than the VM540ML and the Denon 103R.

I am starting to think the differences between TT's and carts is vastly overrated (like everything else in the Audio World) and if you can find a TT/ Arm/ Cart combination that is fairly flat, or even measure it and EQ to flat, you will be able to get what LP's have to offer without spending a fortune.

View attachment 109676

With respect to the CD response graphed in red, it has the highest bass and treble peaks, as you point out, But rather than being a mastering decision, could that be the result of the differences in the capabilities of tape vs vinyl?

 

[JP]

If you get a good line on any more of those Pmount's, let me know. I have the 310mc, and the 205mk3 that came with the SL-15 (couple of 312's some others I've picked up), but happy to find more good ones.

Here's the first rip I did with the 310mc on the SL-10.

Steely Dan
VIMX-1514
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14rZfC9qu8xcRiSblY2g2KyEgura-abRK/view

I need to figure out how to measure these things...just getting started taking it more seriously.

It's a real crapshoot if the suspensions have held up on these. The Technics TTDD suspension likes turn to jelly. For every good one I find, I've ~9 bad ones.

 

[levimax]

With respect to the CD response graphed in red, it has the highest bass and treble peaks, as you point out, But rather than being a mastering decision, could that be the result of the differences in the capabilities of tape vs vinyl?

I have done this analysis on over a dozen different recordings and often times the Original LP and Original CD have almost identical FR ( I assume this is when they use the LP cutting tape for the CD) so their is no technical reason an LP is going to have rolled off highs (especially in this case where the CD is boosted relative to the LP starting at 3 Khz). Now obviously these are different mastering's and which one is closer to the "master tapes" I have no way of knowing but a lot of people like the original UK mastering and "boosting the highs and lows" was done on a lot of CD's of classic rock recordings so they would "stand out".

 

[levimax]

Good point, it was pulled quickly. I have the 80 Diament mastered CD of II and its pretty thunderous. Thanks for the explanations.

See below Whole Lotta Love Original RL LP is yellow line and Diament original CD is red line. Not much difference at all. I could make up a story about slightly boosted bass on the CD and a worn out mater tape with rolled off highs on the CD but I really don't know. VERY SIMILAR is all I can say for sure and level matched ABX they are hard to tell apart (except for noise and skipping on LP )

 

[MusicNBeer]

@levimax, thanks for the plots. They do look pretty similar. I have the Diament of Zep I as well and prefer it substantially over the 2 vinyl copies I have, the Piros master.

I just made a post in the General section where I covered using ARTA to do this exact thing over a complete track. ARTA has a nice trace diff feature to see the actual diff vs frequency.