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Turntable upgrade question

_thelaughingman

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Good morning,

I have an Audio Technica LP60 that I've had for the past five years and finally want to upgrade to a new forever turntable. My budget is $500 and I've been looking at Fluance RT85 and Pro-ject Debut series, but not sure which one of the two would be a better deal. Any other recommendations or insights are welcome.
Thank you.
 

Balle Clorin

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If you want your forever turntable , things to consider is a turntable and arm that allows VTA and Azimuth adjustments. And a detachable headshell. Some Audio Technica headshell allow both Azimuth and overhang adjustment, to optimize your cartridge position , but you need a test record to utilize it. ( Ortofon has use commonly available) You may upgrade to that later, and you do not need an arm with azimuth adjustment with this headshell.
VTA is for advanced users but Azimuth can make a real difference to the sound stage/ stereo effect.

Look for a second hand Technics direct drive, classic or recent. Then you avoid all the wow and speed variations caused commonly with belt drive. The Audio Technica have direct drive but recent models have quite poor specified performance data, no better than belt drive. They may look like a Technics but is not.


If you want a Project, this one has consistent and good speed in the lab data.


This one shown how much a bad belt choice can screw up the performance, but a non detachable headshell is a no no…
 
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JSmith

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Look for a second hand Technics direct drive, classic or recent.
+1
The Audio Technica have direct drive but recent models have quite poor specified performance data, no better than belt drive.
Speaking of direct drive, I believe these are worth a look;


JSmith
 

computer-audiophile

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Speaking of direct drive, I believe these are worth a look;
Sorry only S/N ratio: > 55dB (DIN-B) I would not recommend this.
The Pioneer PLX 1000 is a better choice IMO in this Class of DJ-Turntables.

If it is really about long-term durability, with high priority, then Pro-Ject would be worth considering. The manufacturer recently committed in an interview to keeping spare parts on hand for 25 years. The company also has a good service. I have had contact with them myself.
 

JeremyFife

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Hi
The answer, of course, is that "it depends" :)
Will vinyl be your primary source for music, or is it just one? That affects what you might think about as a 'forever' upgrade.
Do you have a phono pre-amp, or will you rely on the new turntable to have one included (not optimal)? You may need to add in the phono pre-amp to your budget.

I have a basic pro-ject Debut and I am more than happy with it. Because my primary music source is digital now I am content with the limitations of the turntable (not really upgradeable or adjustable). I'm limited in the cartridges I could upgrade to and I'm fine with that. It sounds great and I doubt that I will ever upgrade - mainly because I accept the inherent flaws of vinyl.
One of the new ones (Debut Carbon EVO, or a Debut Pro) will work well, give you no fuss and sound lovely.

However, if vinyl was my only (or main) source of music then I would want at least the option to upgrade in future. I don't think my Debut would be the right platform to start from.

It's outwith your budget, but a sound Direct Drive TT would also be where I'd go. Second hand if I felt like taking a risk (I probably would). The other posters here know a lot more about this stuff, and I'd listen.

Enjoy
 

Mean & Green

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Personally I have no experience with Fluance, but I do have experience with Pro-ject.

If you are considering a Debut model I would seriously recommend pushing your budget to the Debut Pro. The reasons being that the Debut Pro has adjustable tracking angle and adjustable azimuth. It has a heavy damped cast aluminium platter which is non magnetic, all of that means that for ’a forever turntable‘ those features mean you can pick and choose what cartridges you want to use further down the road and the deck can be properly adjusted and set up to suit.

Overall it is a well made piece of equipment. Personally I don’t think detachable head shells are important unless you want to be swapping carts on a constant basis. If you’re more of a fit and forget kind of person who just wants to play records, but want a turntable that won’t limit your options in the future there is nothing wrong with a one piece tonearm and it could be argued there are mechanical advantages to that.

The Debut Pro is a solid performer. You could choose the Carbon Evo instead for cost reasons, but the Evo lacks the adjustability of the Pro and has a lower spec tonearm lower spec platter and (I think a lower spec motor, but not 100% sure on that).

You‘ll get a lot of different opinions on a subject like this, I personally prefer to buy new rather than used regarding turntables. You know you are getting a deck that has a new stylus, new belts etc and has some warranty.

Pro-ject are a sustainable manufacturer who hand make everything in Europe, locally source all materials and promise to supply spare parts for decades.

I will add that I own a Debut Pro and I debated for a period of about 12 months which turntable to upgrade to from a very basic Pro-ject Elemental which gave me 9 years of trouble free use. I chose the Debut Pro for the reasons above and also I like how it looks.

Having used it for a while now I can say wholeheartedly that I love it.
 
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DSJR

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$500 in the US and even £500 in the UK, isn't going to get you much in the way of new product really. ProJects here at this level look good, but in my opinion can't hold a candle to the evergreen current model Rega 3 which has a FAR better tonearm (arguably amongst the best in the business despite lack of adjustments the company feels are largely unnecessary in the real world) and these days, a stable lower noise drive.

I've not tried one here, but the Technics SL100C keeps drawing my attention with it's direct drive motor seemingly derived from similar ideas in my beloved old Dual 701 with Pabst made EDS1000 motor. Here, it comes with a crude nail of a VM95C, the stylus of which easily upgraded to a VM95 ML or more 'subtle up top,' the 95SH.

I have a back-up knowledge of good used buys if ever I needed to replace the old Dual, but for new decks but it's a total minefield now, but for new, the MINIMUM I'd go for is a Rega 6 (massier platter and external Neo supply which allows speed tuning, especially when the better Rega belts are used which usually increase the speed) or perhaps the Technics 1200G, which I think is more substantially made from what I gather and which may have a price advantage 'over the pond' from us (I'm no longer in the thick of it now sadly so no hope of a hands on play).

Vinyl reproduction is a mechanical thing and to get accurate reading of what's actually in the grooves needs precision engineering and great care in isolating the playback machine from its surroundings in terms of structural borne vibrations getting through and also air borne vibrations from the speakers. The new decks I mention above DEMAND careful isolation and just plonking them down on a cabinet top simply isn't ideal at all!!! To do it seriously right means spending shedloads of dosh if the reproduction is to be lifted from a nice but mid-Fi quality of reproduction.

Remember please that the cartridge 'sound quality' is dependent on the deck and tonearm it's fitted to (the evergreen AT95E of old could appear almost transformed when fitted to a decent platform priced way over it's humble level). Getting all this right will help cheaper phono stages to work better as well as again, they're only as good as what they're sent and cheaper stages don't have the high overload margins for example that more capable models have...
 

computer-audiophile

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seemingly derived from similar ideas in my beloved old Dual 701 with Pabst made EDS1000 motor.
Technics used to have such flat 'ironless' DD motors a long time ago. I don't think they copied it from Dual.

By the way, I recently had a Pro-Ject 'The Classic' which played very well, looked good and had convinced me because of its neat construction. I could recommend it.
I would not buy used turntables or returned goods.
 

DVDdoug

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As always, the question is, WHY do you want to upgrade? Or, what don't you like about your current setup?

But I'm also a fan of direct drive (if you want a turntable at all). No belts or drive wheels to worry about... I've got a 30 or 40 year-old Technics (not the expensive-popular DJ model) and it still works fine, although it seldom gets used. I only use it to occasionally digitize a record that's not available digitally).

Your price range also seems about right (if it was me)... I wouldn't go too-cheap, but I also wouldn't go too-crazy with something that's never going to sound as good as a cheap CD player (or any digital player).

The ONLY time I've heard any defect (or difference) from any turntable was when it was broken, or I've heard rumble (or some other noise) from a "cheap plastic" turntable.

On the other hand, the cartridge will affect frequency response and possibly distortion on some "hard to track" records. But you can tweak frequency response with EQ (or simple bass & treble controls) and with older records the "frequency balance" varies all over the place anyway. (I assume newer vinyl releasees are better.)

Presumably, the tonearm can make a difference in tracking but I never personally heard a difference that I'd attribute the to the tone arm, nor have I done any kind of A/B or ABX listening tests. I never felt the need to upgrade my tonearm, or to upgrade to a turntable with a better tonearm.

Back in the vinyl days I was always foolishly upgrading, or wanting to upgrade, my cartridge even though I knew the real problem was the records... I stopped upgrading my analog setup when I got my 1st CD player, and I eventually stopped playing records.
 
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AaronJ

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Does your budget include the cartridge, or is it just for the turntable?

For under $500 you can get an Audio Technica AT-LPW30 and upgrade the stylus to a VM95ML, and I sincerely doubt this combination could be beat without stepping up to a substantially better turntable.
 
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DSJR

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Technics used to have such flat 'ironless' DD motors a long time ago. I don't think they copied it from Dual.

By the way, I recently had a Pro-Ject 'The Classic' which played very well, looked good and had convinced me because of its neat construction. I could recommend it.
I would not buy used turntables or returned goods.
I found the Classic deck tinny and kind of resonant with a clanky platter assembly, this before a record was spun. Their tonearms also inclined to ring (deliberately?) in the midrange. Not my bag I'm afraid, sorry...

The current Technics motor-coil design is very like the EDS 1000 Pabst made fifty years back (there should be many pics on the web which visually show what I'm on about. The SL1500 I'm storing here for a pal isn't like that at all and neither was the previous 'classic' SL1200mk2 motor design


dual701-38.jpg


DSCF0460.JPG
 

computer-audiophile

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The turntable-platter of "The Classic" is made of relatively heavy aluminum with a cast-in damping ring made of silicone rubber, I don't see what should make it tinny and somehow resonant, just like the sub-chassis deck made of a composite of HDF and aluminum. And that the carbon tone arm should be so bad? I can only wonder about such statements. There is nothing about it in tests either. But I speak from my own experience.

Decades ago in the eighties or even the seventies, I once had a Technics low profile DD that had a similar ironless flat coil motor design based on a PCB. But I've forgotten which model it was.

Well, let's agree to disagree on our judgements. ;):)
 
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Apesbrain

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Any other recommendations or insights are welcome.
Be aware that the turntables you are considering, as well as many that others have suggested, are "manual" in operation. You put the tonearm down in the first groove and you lift it off when the side is completed. This is different from your fully-automatic LP60, so just something to keep in mind if it matters to you.

Also, it's unclear whether you are using the phono pre-amp/USB connectivity that is built into the LP60. If so, you'll want a new turntable that also has the same features or you may need to purchase a separate component to do this.

I'd second the suggestion above regarding the Audio-Technica AT-LPW series. They are basic, but solid, and have good specs. I wouldn't worry about upgrading the stylus for now. You'll be replacing it due to wear in a year or so and can decide then if you want to upgrade to the EN or ML replacement.
 
OP
_thelaughingman

_thelaughingman

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Wow this is a lively debate. Thank you all for the great suggestions and valid concerns. First and foremost I don't have an upgraditis, but want to upgrade to a proper turntable due to lack of options on cartridge I can use with the LP60(only compatible to ATN3600L). Second I want a manual table since the automatic one has damaged couple of records due to a power mishap and two instances where the cartridge ground down cuz my toddler jumped too much in the same room.
My current setup has a dedicated phono pre amp which is connected to an integrated amplifier. I have been researching motor driven vs belt driven turntables and have seen the longevity of the belt drive turntables based off reviews and other people's input here. I do like the suggestion of a Technics and am adding on the cost to the budget to consider more viable options as well.
 
OP
_thelaughingman

_thelaughingman

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Does your budget include the cartridge, or is it just for the turntable?

For under $500 you can get an Audio Technica AT-LPW30 and upgrade the stylus to a VM95ML, and I sincerely doubt this combination could be beat without stepping up to a substantially better turntable.
I think my initial budget of $500 is strictly for the turntable, I'm willing to allocate more for the cartridge upgrade based on having a solid foundation.
 

Timcognito

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Like cars used gets you a much nicer TT at the same price. Do research, if in the US Craig's List and US Audio Mart are good options
 
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_thelaughingman

_thelaughingman

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Like cars used gets you a much nicer TT at the same price. Do research, if in the US Craig's List and US Audio Mart are good options
I've scoured my local Craigslist and haven't turned up anything good, might have to cast a wider net to find something good. I haven't checked out Audio Mart yet but will do.
 

pseudoid

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Bit OT: Does any turntable manufacturer - in today's market - offer ('bulkhead' mount) RCA sockets rather than un-detachable (permanently attached) RCA cables?
That bugged me the most in all of the turntables I owned.
 

computer-audiophile

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If it is to be a used purchase, then I would insist on inspecting and picking it up myself. Only the original packaging and properly attached transport locks prevent damage during shipping. Many sellers are too careless about this.
 

Mean & Green

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Bit OT: Does any turntable manufacturer - in today's market - offer ('bulkhead' mount) RCA sockets rather than un-detachable (permanently attached) RCA cables?
That bugged me the most in all of the turntables I owned.
Yes Pro-ject tables come with RCA sockets and an included separate RCA lead as opposed to fixed un detachable cables.
 
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