Sibilance Distortion On 12” Singles Only

[LTig]

Pro-Ject Phono Box S2 Ultra pre amp.

Ok, set the +3dB switch down, to 40dB gain.
Edit: oops, too late.

 

[LTig]

I’ve got the gain on selected on the lowest setting of MM 40db.

Could still be too high since the manual does not specify the headroom. What kind of input does the phono box feed? Maybe the premp clips.

 

[Mean & Green]

Ok, set the +3dB switch down, to 40dB gain.
Edit: oops, too late.

Ok, set the +3dB switch down, to 40dB gain.
Edit: oops, too late.

It’s also a relatively modest output cart of 4mV and with the pre amp on the lowest gain settings, I think I can rule this potential for clipping out.

 

[Mean & Green]

Could still be too high since the manual does not specify the headroom. What kind of input does the phono box feed? Maybe the premp clips.

The preamp being fed by the phono box is a NAD C326 BEE which according to the specs is good for up to 8V of input before clipping.

 

[Balle Clorin]

How did you set up the cartridge,? have you checked antiskating with a test record, and also tracking.? The Ortofon test record is good for check if channel balance, crosstalk and tracking/antiskate.

 

[DSJR]

The specs show an elliptical tip, 4mV output (I assume at 4cm/s), 2g tracking force and my experience of the 2M range as a breed is that they don't have nasssssty peaks as standard.

As said a few times above, 12" singles were often cut with all the limiters off and being 45rpm (mostly?) they should sound phenomenal and closest to good digital if the mastering allows. I wonder about phono stage overload in the first instance as Ortofons in this range are pretty good trackers. Can the OP try a different phono stag eperhaps?

Solid plinth decks MUST be carefully sited an dused with lid rempved preferably as the lids left open and which are often fitted to the plinth are very good at acting as soundboards and transmitting vibrations into the deck structure which has a negative effect long before howl-round starts - first hand experience here...

 

[Mean & Green]

The specs show an elliptical tip, 4mV output (I assume at 4cm/s), 2g tracking force and my experience of the 2M range as a breed is that they don't have nasssssty peaks as standard.

As said a few times above, 12" singles were often cut with all the limiters off and being 45rpm (mostly?) they should sound phenomenal and closest to good digital if the mastering allows. I wonder about phono stage overload in the first instance as Ortofons in this range are pretty good trackers. Can the OP try a different phono stag eperhaps?

Solid plinth decks MUST be carefully sited an dused with lid rempved preferably as the lids left open and which are often fitted to the plinth are very good at acting as soundboards and transmitting vibrations into the deck structure which has a negative effect long before howl-round starts - first hand experience here...

Thanks for the input.

I’m confident it’s not a feedback issue. It only happens on some records and also happens when speakers are taken out of the equation by plugging headphones into my amp. It also happens at any volume level and I don’t play particularly loud.

It’s a pretty reasonable spec phono stage the S2 Ultra going from Pro-ject‘s own specs. I’d expect mid range Pro-ject equipment such as phono pre amp, TT and cartridge to be compatible. Considering the cartridge is outputting a rather unexceptional 4mV if the phono stage is being overloaded when set on it’s lowest gain settings then I think that would be pretty poor show. The average Ortofon 2M outputs 5.5mV, I would be really surprised and hugely disappointed if overloading was the case here.

I’m more inclined to swap out the Pick It stylus and see what happens before looking at the phono stage.

Pro-ject have specified the Pick It stylus with a lower compliance vs the Ortofon 2M range it’s based upon. I don’t know why they have done that.

As an example the Pick it has a compliance of 12 μm/mN and a tracking ability of 70μm/315Hz and is a bonded elliptical.

A 2M Blue has a compliance of 20 µm/mN and a tracking ability of 80μm/315Hz and is a nude elliptical.

I am curious to know how audible those differences in tracking would be on ‘difficult’ records.

 

[Galliardist]

If you look at the cartridge, head on, when playing a good and a bad disc respectively, does the cartridge pull to one side or swing from side to side when the sibilance is present? Is the cantilever vertical to the disc surface? Does the top of the cartridge look to be parallel to tbe disc surface?

Does the sibilance change in nature, or is it the same right across the disc?

Did you buy the turntable from a physical store?

 

[mike70]

If it's not acoustic feedback, not preamp distortion, not misalignment, not groove damage ... then I bet is a dirty record.

Try doing a deep clean with a decent RCM.

I had a record with last track sibilance (with 2m blue) and goes well after deep cleaning.

 

[Bob from Florida]

I’d appreciate some real advice here as other forums are really just full of nonsensical opinions rather than real answers. I’ve done much Googling and don’t feel much more enlightened.

I Upgraded from a basic Pro-Ject Elemental with Ortofon OM5E to a brand new Debut Pro with a Pick It Pro a couple of months back. For the most part it has been a revelation and decent improvement. However the more I work my way through my record collection the more I’m noticing that on some 12” 45 RPM singles I’m experiencing an annoying amount of distorted sibilance which sounds like stylus miss tracking.

My albums all sound fine for the most part. I don’t really experience inner groove distortion, I’ve checked set up and I’m tracking at the recommended 2 grams. It’s only really 12” singles where I’m noticing this horrible distortion on loud sibilant sections of recordings, but not all some are fine.

I would put it down to the records, some I don’t know their history before me, but I never heard this issue on my old basic turntable.

I welcome constructive thoughts. I’ve never had anything higher than a bonded elliptical stylus, so wonder if a nude elliptical or a nude fine line would improve this issue. I’m wondering if my current setup is just highlighting problematic records in my collection which the last one did not.

The Pick It Pro cartridge fitted to my Debut Pro is based on the Ortofon 2M red, but with lower compliance and fewer windings in the cartridge body as far as I can tell.

It sounds like the cartridge may be the source. Could be setup - how did you verify overhang, zenith, tracking force, VTA, and anti-skate?

 

[DSJR]

Thanks for the input.

I’m confident it’s not a feedback issue. It only happens on some records and also happens when speakers are taken out of the equation by plugging headphones into my amp. It also happens at any volume level and I don’t play particularly loud.

It’s a pretty reasonable spec phono stage the S2 Ultra going from Pro-ject‘s own specs. I’d expect mid range Pro-ject equipment such as phono pre amp, TT and cartridge to be compatible. Considering the cartridge is outputting a rather unexceptional 4mV if the phono stage is being overloaded when set on it’s lowest gain settings then I think that would be pretty poor show. The average Ortofon 2M outputs 5.5mV, I would be really surprised and hugely disappointed if overloading was the case here.

I’m more inclined to swap out the Pick It stylus and see what happens before looking at the phono stage.

Pro-ject have specified the Pick It stylus with a lower compliance vs the Ortofon 2M range it’s based upon. I don’t know why they have done that.

As an example the Pick it has a compliance of 12 μm/mN and a tracking ability of 70μm/315Hz and is a bonded elliptical.

A 2M Blue has a compliance of 20 µm/mN and a tracking ability of 80μm/315Hz and is a nude elliptical.

I am curious to know how audible those differences in tracking would be on ‘difficult’ records.

Ah, thanks for expanded info. A naked elliptical stone should help no end, but I did once hear of horror stories about the fussiness of the 2M Blue which seems related to the OM20 and 520mk2 (I have the latter and it's a lively sounding thing which I like I have to say).

I DID fall in love with the 2M Bronze though and the stylus will happily fit your Pick It body. Surface noise seemed low and the tip profile may help read the sibilant sections in your discs better. I'm also a huge fan of the AT 540 and better here, the more 'subtle' balanced 740 version, but that involves a cartridge change. Reviews, measurements and soundbites on the German Lowbeats site.

 

[Mean & Green]

Ok folks time for an update. I thank you all for your responses.

Curiosity got the better of me and I ordered a 2M Blue stylus. I have swapped it with the original stylus but kept the Pick It Pro cartridge installed.

WOW! I am not joking here and I’m genuinely astounded - but I think this stylus swap has to be one of the most dramatic improvements I’ve ever experienced with changing out audio equipment. That’s including swapping out speakers.

The distorted sibilance has completely disappeared, not just improved - it’s gone!

The whole presentation seems smoother overall, but still plenty of detail and clarity very happy!

 

[Galliardist]

Ok folks time for an update. I thank you all for your responses.

Curiosity got the better of me and I ordered a 2M Blue stylus. I have swapped it with the original stylus but kept the Pick It Pro cartridge installed.

WOW! I am not joking here and I’m genuinely astounded - but I think this stylus swap has to be one of the most dramatic improvements I’ve ever experienced with changing out audio equipment. That’s including swapping out speakers.

The distorted sibilance has completely disappeared, not just improved - it’s gone!

The whole presentation seems smoother overall, but still plenty of detail and clarity very happy!

That’s good news.

Did you take the time to do the visual check? It’s possible that the problem has been masked by the stylus change but that you do still have mistracking.

The last point to cover would be to get your d stylus checked for damage if someone near you offers that service. I think we all missed that possibility here.

Oh, and make sure you have a safe, regular stylus cleaning routine - I don’t know what that looks like these days but I’m sure someone does and can post info.

 

[mike70]

Do you clean the stylus regularly? ... your records are clean?

 

[Mean & Green]

That’s good news.

Did you take the time to do the visual check? It’s possible that the problem has been masked by the stylus change but that you do still have mistracking.

The last point to cover would be to get your d stylus checked for damage if someone near you offers that service. I think we all missed that possibility here.

Oh, and make sure you have a safe, regular stylus cleaning routine - I don’t know what that looks like these days but I’m sure someone does and can post info.

Yes I performed all checks before posting this thread. The reason I was posting was because I’d exhausted all possibilities other than the stylus itself. I appreciate this is hard to portray and no one here actually knows me or the setup so it’s only right that everyone is covering all of the basics first.

I am 100% happy that the setup of the turntable, tonearm and cartridge is correct. I’m pretty OCD with stuff like this, unless the original stylus was damaged at the factory with the turntable I can’t see it being damaged during my usage.

I do perform regular cleaning as needed with one of those gel pots that you lower the stylus into to pull off the dirt. I rarely need to use it, but when I do it’s there.

I‘m putting the issue down to a poor stylus as supplied with the TT. Some Googling finds others with the same TT and cartridge with similar sibilance issues, but no concrete solutions to the problem.

The original stylus is based on a 2M Red bonded elliptical but Pro-ject have lowered it‘s compliance to their own specification and rebranded it, with negative results IMO.

For the most part it performed really well, but in certain conditions it was adding artefacts which were not on the record. At least I’ve found out for myself what it was.

Thanks for your input!

 

[Mean & Green]

Do you clean the stylus regularly? ... your records are clean?

Yes thanks, records are clean and I do perform stylus cleaning as required.

The issue is solved in one of my previous posts within the thread thanks.

 

[mike70]

So, bad stylus then ... bad luck case.

 

[Galliardist]

Yes I performed all checks before posting this thread. The reason I was posting was because I’d exhausted all possibilities other than the stylus itself. I appreciate this is hard to portray and no one here actually knows me or the setup so it’s only right that everyone is covering all of the basics first.

I am 100% happy that the setup of the turntable, tonearm and cartridge is correct. I’m pretty OCD with stuff like this, unless the original stylus was damaged at the factory with the turntable I can’t see it being damaged during my usage.

I do perform regular cleaning as needed with one of those gel pots that you lower the stylus into to pull off the dirt. I rarely need to use it, but when I do it’s there.

I‘m putting the issue down to a poor stylus as supplied with the TT. Some Googling finds others with the same TT and cartridge with similar sibilance issues, but no concrete solutions to the problem.

The original stylus is based on a 2M Red bonded elliptical but Pro-ject have lowered it‘s compliance to their own specification and rebranded it, with negative results IMO.

For the most part it performed really well, but in certain conditions it was adding artefacts which were not on the record. At least I’ve found out for myself what it was.

Thanks for your input!

Good detective work on your part.

Have you contacted Project and whoever sold you the turntable with this information? I was wondering if this was a manufacturing fault, but you’ve found a lower specification and others having the issue, so it’s worth asking why they sold you a turntable that doesn’t play records properly.

In the worst case, the compliance change may be there to hide an issue with the arm.

My last turntable was a Project and it went through three motors in less than five years. That was one factor in my giving up vinyl. I’d also noted that Linn seem to have dropped Project as their OEM tonearm supplier for a Clearaudio arm, which made me suspicious.

You may find that the counterweight supplied won’t balance heavier cartridges as well, if you decide to look for further improvement in that direction. It used to be the case that you had to order a heavier weight. I don’t know if that’s still the case though.

 

[Mean & Green]

Good detective work on your part.

Have you contacted Project and whoever sold you the turntable with this information? I was wondering if this was a manufacturing fault, but you’ve found a lower specification and others having the issue, so it’s worth asking why they sold you a turntable that doesn’t play records properly.

In the worst case, the compliance change may be there to hide an issue with the arm.

My last turntable was a Project and it went through three motors in less than five years. That was one factor in my giving up vinyl. I’d also noted that Linn seem to have dropped Project as their OEM tonearm supplier for a Clearaudio arm, which made me suspicious.

You may find that the counterweight supplied won’t balance heavier cartridges as well, if you decide to look for further improvement in that direction. It used to be the case that you had to order a heavier weight. I don’t know if that’s still the case though.

I don’t think there are any issues with the tonearms personally.

With regards to contacting Pro-ject, maybe I could give them some feedback but in all honesty I wouldn’t expect much of a response. At the end of the day they have a budget. It’s handmade with everything sourced in Europe they can’t give you the world without charging the end user and I suspect they wanted this model to fit into a specific price bracket.

I chose this model for its adjustability for potential future upgrades. It has adjustable VTA, adjustable azimuth, cast aluminium and damped platter, adjustable feet and so on. I chose it for the quality of the materials it’s made from overall. They aren‘t going to include anything other than a basic stylus I suppose because they probably expect people to swap such things out anyway given the adjustability of it and the fact it’s marketed around it‘s adjustability which is rare or unheard of at it‘s price level.

It‘s harsh to say it couldn’t play records properly. Most of my record collection sounded excellent, it was just a select few I had problems with and I’m very picky.

I suspected it was the stylus to blame, but wanted a second opinion or confirmation really from people here on ASR as other audiophile forums are just full of nonsense and I admit I’ve never owned anything with more than a basic bonded stylus before. Funnily enough, the first response here was telling me to change the stylus and that was the only response which was correct.

I have owned another Pro-ject for 9 years without a single issue and it was their cheapest most entry level model, the Elemental. That was a good enough machine to keep me playing records for 9 years and be pretty happy, so I felt that progressing onto another Pro-ject was just a natural path. I don‘t regret it.

 

[mike70]

I have owned another Pro-ject for 9 years without a single issue and it was their cheapest most entry level model, the Elemental. That was a good enough machine to keep me playing records for 9 years and be pretty happy, so I felt that progressing onto another Pro-ject was just a natural path. I don‘t regret it.

next time try a Technics quartz direct drive