Sibilance Distortion On 12” Singles Only

[Mean & Green]

I’d appreciate some real advice here as other forums are really just full of nonsensical opinions rather than real answers. I’ve done much Googling and don’t feel much more enlightened.

I Upgraded from a basic Pro-Ject Elemental with Ortofon OM5E to a brand new Debut Pro with a Pick It Pro a couple of months back. For the most part it has been a revelation and decent improvement. However the more I work my way through my record collection the more I’m noticing that on some 12” 45 RPM singles I’m experiencing an annoying amount of distorted sibilance which sounds like stylus miss tracking.

My albums all sound fine for the most part. I don’t really experience inner groove distortion, I’ve checked set up and I’m tracking at the recommended 2 grams. It’s only really 12” singles where I’m noticing this horrible distortion on loud sibilant sections of recordings, but not all some are fine.

I would put it down to the records, some I don’t know their history before me, but I never heard this issue on my old basic turntable.

I welcome constructive thoughts. I’ve never had anything higher than a bonded elliptical stylus, so wonder if a nude elliptical or a nude fine line would improve this issue. I’m wondering if my current setup is just highlighting problematic records in my collection which the last one did not.

The Pick It Pro cartridge fitted to my Debut Pro is based on the Ortofon 2M red, but with lower compliance and fewer windings in the cartridge body as far as I can tell.

 

[Philbo King]

- Try a new stylus. My favorite tyoe is Shibata
- Make sure antiskate setting is right

 

[Curvature]

Loading for MM cartridges affects HF response and may be a culprit as well.

 

[Galliardist]

Three possibilities (there will be some more that I've forgotten as an ex-vinyl user of nearly two decades)

Acoustic feedback. 12 inch 45s can be cut louder and have more bass, so feedback could cause mistracking.
Anti-skate: if it's wrong, then the higher speed record could show that up. That can combine with feedback as well. The instructions are pretty clear on how to set that up, of course. But that brings us to:

Tracking weight. If you rely on the supplied thingy to set the tracking weight, it could be quite a way out. You need a proper scale. Of course, if you set the tracking weight below 2g in practice, the anti-skate will then be wrong.

Finally, the lid. Play discs with the lid either down or removed. Playing with the lid up will increase acoustic feedback.

I don't know the Debut Pro at all, but working off the manual, it doesn't have much isolation. A lightweight table or a wall shelf on a solid wall is often the best way to deal with that lack of isolation. If you have the turntable on a heavy rack, on top of a record cabinet, or worst of all on the same piece of furniture as the speakers, it will pick up structural feedback as well.

All the other things in cartrdge setup, particularly vertical and horizontal alignment should be checked as well, but I understand those things should be correct out of the box with this turntable. I've selected the things I have to point out because you say you don't have problems with LPs, but I'm not there so can't guarantee it isn't something else.

 

[Galliardist]

Loading for MM cartridges affects HF response and may be a culprit as well.

Why wouldn't that show up with everything, rather than certain discs?

 

[Curvature]

Why wouldn't that show up with everything, rather than certain discs?

Certain discs will have different spectral content, and the OP's 12" singles might be the cause because they have hotter HF than his other records, coincidentally. We aren't there to inspect the setup or records, and we can't verify the listening reports, so loading is another thing to consider among the others named.

 

[DVDdoug]

There's a possibility that the records are just poor quality, or "I've heard" that records can be damaged by previous mis-tracking so the MAYBE they are permanently damaged.

Did you keep your old setup (or the Ortofon cartridge)? Or do you know someone else with a turntable?

I would try increasing tracking force by 1/2 or 1 gram. Most manufacturers recommend a range. If that helps you've confirmed a tracking problem and maybe you can readjust when you play those records (depending on how much trouble it is to re-adjust) or maybe you can add a weight when you play those records.

It's up to you to decide if it's worth the gamble of buying-trying a different cartridge to improve just a few records.

...Personally, I gave-up on upgrading by vinyl set-up when I got my 1st CD player and I eventually gave-up on analog altogether.

 

[Mean & Green]

- Try a new stylus. My favorite tyoe is Shibata
- Make sure antiskate setting is right

As much as I would like to try out shibata I feel some of my second hand records would not be worthy of such an expenditure. I’ve read that shibata stylus are very unforgiving of any surface noise.

 

[Mean & Green]

Loading for MM cartridges affects HF response and may be a culprit as well.

I’ve got the pre amp set at 47k ohms and 300pF which is within the specified range for the cartridge. I was considering trying a slightly lower capacitance but so many records sound so right that I don’t feel this needs tweaking.

 

[Mean & Green]

Three possibilities (there will be some more that I've forgotten as an ex-vinyl user of nearly two decades)

Acoustic feedback. 12 inch 45s can be cut louder and have more bass, so feedback could cause mistracking.
Anti-skate: if it's wrong, then the higher speed record could show that up. That can combine with feedback as well. The instructions are pretty clear on how to set that up, of course. But that brings us to:

Tracking weight. If you rely on the supplied thingy to set the tracking weight, it could be quite a way out. You need a proper scale. Of course, if you set the tracking weight below 2g in practice, the anti-skate will then be wrong.

Finally, the lid. Play discs with the lid either down or removed. Playing with the lid up will increase acoustic feedback.

I don't know the Debut Pro at all, but working off the manual, it doesn't have much isolation. A lightweight table or a wall shelf on a solid wall is often the best way to deal with that lack of isolation. If you have the turntable on a heavy rack, on top of a record cabinet, or worst of all on the same piece of furniture as the speakers, it will pick up structural feedback as well.

All the other things in cartrdge setup, particularly vertical and horizontal alignment should be checked as well, but I understand those things should be correct out of the box with this turntable. I've selected the things I have to point out because you say you don't have problems with LPs, but I'm not there so can't guarantee it isn't something else.

I don’t think it’s acoustic feedback. I have a concrete floor and the turntable is on top of the equipment rack. It’s very stable and level.

The distorted sibilance is happening even if I have the volume very low or through headphones too. I’ve set the tracking force with a digital scale not the supplied sea saw. The antiskate is set as per the instructions.

 

[Mean & Green]

Certain discs will have different spectral content, and the OP's 12" singles might be the cause because they have hotter HF than his other records, coincidentally. We aren't there to inspect the setup or records, and we can't verify the listening reports, so loading is another thing to consider among the others named.

The records in question definitely have a higher HF level than my trouble free records.

 

[Mean & Green]

There's a possibility that the records are just poor quality, or "I've heard" that records can be damaged by previous mis-tracking so the MAYBE they are permanently damaged.

Did you keep your old setup (or the Ortofon cartridge)? Or do you know someone else with a turntable?

I would try increasing tracking force by 1/2 or 1 gram. Most manufacturers recommend a range. If that helps you've confirmed a tracking problem and maybe you can readjust when you play those records (depending on how much trouble it is to re-adjust) or maybe you can add a weight when you play those records.

It's up to you to decide if it's worth the gamble of buying-trying a different cartridge to improve just a few records.

...Personally, I gave-up on upgrading by vinyl set-up when I got my 1st CD player and I eventually gave-up on analog altogether.

Yes I still have the original set up and can confirm that the issue doesn’t present Itself there. However the old set up doesn’t have the same level of treble response either sounding more rolled off and dull by comparison.

 

[Galliardist]

As much as I would like to try out shibata I feel some of my second hand records would not be worthy of such an expenditure. I’ve read that shibata stylus are very unforgiving of any surface noise.

Not necessarily the case though. Most damaged records affected by stylus related issues, the cause is a spherical or eliptical stylus, and a fine line will track lower in the groove. If the record is clean, older and second hand records are likely to sound better (i used a record library for many years so can confirm this). Fine dirt in the bottom of the groove will affect playback, so the records have to be properly clean for this to work though.

 

[Galliardist]

I don’t think it’s acoustic feedback. I have a concrete floor and the turntable is on top of the equipment rack. It’s very stable and level.

The distorted sibilance is happening even if I have the volume very low or through headphones too. I’ve set the tracking force with a digital scale not the supplied sea saw. The antiskate is set as per the instructions.

An unsuspended turntable on a plain equipment rack is a situation where you can get feedback. If the top shelf of your rack is isolated in some way, then that's probably not the issue. Othewise , try moving the turntable to a small, lightweight coffee table and see what happens. And remember, lid down or off when playing!

How does the sibilance compare with the "appropriate" sibilance provided by a digital source through headphones? I've known vinyl users call properly reproduced sibilance "distorted" in the past, so it's worth a check.

 

[Mean & Green]

I think you answered your own question.

Vinyl is so variable as you know. I've had many new sealed pristine LP's that have sounded like utter garbage, and old visually abhorrent vinyl that is jaw dropping ..... and everything in between.

The worst thing is to return from the used record store with what you think is a pristine piece of vinyl only to find out it sounds horrible. Probably because someone ran it on a table with a horrible stylus.

Yes I can fully relate to that. I’ve got some old records that do not look to be in the best shape, but as you say they can sound jaw dropping. Yet new stuff fresh out of the wrapper can be utter garbage.

Most of the records I play sound exactly how I’d expect them too, theres just these 12” 45s that are to be honest doing my head in because I have never noticed these defects previously.

 

[Galliardist]

What phono preamp are you using?

Is the armtube sloping down towards the headshell? That may increase treble.

 

[Mean & Green]

An unsuspended turntable on a plain equipment rack is a situation where you can get feedback. If the top shelf of your rack is isolated in some way, then that's probably not the issue. Othewise , try moving the turntable to a small, lightweight coffee table and see what happens. And remember, lid down or off when playing!

How does the sibilance compare with the "appropriate" sibilance provided by a digital source through headphones? I've known vinyl users call properly reproduced sibilance "distorted" in the past, so it's worth a check.

It still does it through headphones so I’m ruling out feedback.

The same digital material has sibilance but not the distorted overly harsh scratching sound which can be heard from either L/R independently or both channels together as per on the vinyl. It’s definitely not normal sibilance, but distorted sibilance for sure.

I appreciate the responses.

 

[Mean & Green]

What phono preamp are you using?

Is the armtube sloping down towards the headshell? That may increase treble.

Pro-Ject Phono Box S2 Ultra pre amp.

The tonearm looks perfectly level with the playing surface when playing as does the cartridge.

 

[LTig]

Since it hasn't been mentioned: maybe the phono stage clips. If it has a gain setting then reduce gain and report back.

 

[Mean & Green]

Since it hasn't been mentioned: maybe the phono stage clips. If it has a gain setting then reduce gain and report back.

I’ve got the gain on selected on the lowest setting of MM 40db.