Turntable upgrade question

[robwpdx]

It's supposed to be a 'forever turntable' after all. That means a device with a long lifespan from now. Such an old, relatively complicated Revox linear tracker is not suitable for this project. It has its best time behind it. BTW: I could get one as a gift, would just have to pick it up.

For ASR readers interested in low distortion, suggest the inner- middle- and outer-groove distortion papers of Lofgren, Baerwald, and Stevenson. I read one in the 1970's when I was in the AES.

The Revox turntables have a spare parts and repair ecosystem, and their schematics are published.

There may be a modern update to the Gerrard Zero which helps reduce distortion on pivoting tone arms.

There are modern linear arms, but they are expensive.

If someone wants a pivoting turntable arm that is up to them, and it is a familiar "look." There is not much to go wrong but the motor drive electronics.

Why is this interesting to me? We had a Scully lathe in our studio.

I'm sure there is an ASR topic on this:

 

[computer-audiophile]

Tangential tone arms would certainly be worth a thread of their own. In general, they have not established themselves in the market, they remain exotic. I could not make friends with them either.
I like 12" tonearms, which also minimize the tracking error angle somewhat. Like my Schick 12" for example.

 

[Zapper]

I recently bought a Audio Technica AT-LP120XBT-USB with a AT-VM95ML cartridge upgrade after a long time of wanting to play my record collection that I haven't listened to in 20+ years. My old Dual 505 is out of commission due to degraded belts and sticky mechanisms. This is a relatively simple repair that has been on my to-do list for years, but keeps getting pre-empted by higher priority tasks.

My major requirement was for a turntable that I could pull out and listen to 20, 30 years from now. A "forever" turntable in terms of reliability, if not sonic quality. That means no belts to degrade. No automatic mechanisms to get sticky and need cleaning and lubrication. So direct drive and manual operation were requirements.

Another factor for me is that I don't have a conventional stereo system any more. My stereos consist of self-powered speakers and a WiiM. I don't have a phono preamp and an integrated amplifier. I don't have a stereo rack to put those things in. I don't want a bunch of wires either. So built-in preamp and Bluetooth were requirement. A USB output was a nice-to-have feature in case I want a digital copy of a rare recording.

The AT-LP120XBT-USB was the best turntable I could find with direct drive, manual, and Bluetooth. That said, it is definitely not the greatest turntable. The specs are mediocre. (I do not find the noise level bothersome but I can hear the pitch instability). The body is plastic. It does not have good acoustic isolation, despite having a heavy steel plate inside to add mass and isolation feet. The tone arm does not have vertical tracking adjustments or azimuth adjustments (although the latter can be added by using a different headshell, and the former can be accomplished by changing mat thickness). The anti-skate is badly calibrated on my unit, and needs about 1/2 the suggested anti-tracking. The supplied AT-VM95E cartridge is OK but shows the same limitations that every bonded elliptical stylus does. And of course, audiophile purists will sneer at internal preamps and positively scorn Bluetooth.

None of that matters to me. The sound with the AT-VM95ML cartridge upgrade is delightful (that's one audio upgrade that produces obvious audible benefits for relatively little cost). The build quality isn't an issue - I listen near-field at modest levels so the acoustic pickup of the turntable isn't an issue, and the wireless connection allows me to place it across the room from the speakers. And most importantly, I am greatly enjoying my 500+ records that I haven't heard in decades, and rediscovering old favorites I had long forgotten. So, mission accomplished, and $570 very well spent!

 

[computer-audiophile]

I recently bought a Audio Technica AT-LP120XBT-USB with a AT-VM95ML cartridge upgrade after a long time of wanting to play my record collection that I haven't listened to in 20+ years. My old Dual 505 is out of commission due to degraded belts and sticky mechanisms. This is a relatively simple repair that has been on my to-do list for years, but keeps getting pre-empted by higher priority tasks.

My major requirement was for a turntable that I could pull out and listen to 20, 30 years from now. A "forever" turntable in terms of reliability, if not sonic quality. That means no belts to degrade. No automatic mechanisms to get sticky and need cleaning and lubrication. So direct drive and manual operation were requirements.

Another factor for me is that I don't have a conventional stereo system any more. My stereos consist of self-powered speakers and a WiiM. I don't have a phono preamp and an integrated amplifier. I don't have a stereo rack to put those things in. I don't want a bunch of wires either. So built-in preamp and Bluetooth were requirement. A USB output was a nice-to-have feature in case I want a digital copy of a rare recording.

The AT-LP120XBT-USB was the best turntable I could find with direct drive, manual, and Bluetooth. That said, it is definitely not the greatest turntable. The specs are mediocre. (I do not find the noise level bothersome but I can hear the pitch instability). The body is plastic. It does not have good acoustic isolation, despite having a heavy steel plate inside to add mass and isolation feet. The tone arm does not have vertical tracking adjustments or azimuth adjustments (although the latter can be added by using a different headshell, and the former can be accomplished by changing mat thickness). The anti-skate is badly calibrated on my unit, and needs about 1/2 the suggested anti-tracking. The supplied AT-VM95E cartridge is OK but shows the same limitations that every bonded elliptical stylus does. And of course, audiophile purists will sneer at internal preamps and positively scorn Bluetooth.

None of that matters to me. The sound with the AT-VM95ML cartridge upgrade is delightful (that's one audio upgrade that produces obvious audible benefits for relatively little cost). The build quality isn't an issue - I listen near-field at modest levels so the acoustic pickup of the turntable isn't an issue, and the wireless connection allows me to place it across the room from the speakers. And most importantly, I am greatly enjoying my 500+ records that I haven't heard in decades, and rediscovering old favorites I had long forgotten. So, mission accomplished, and $570 very well spent!

In any case, I find this decision well justified and presented. It all always depends on priorities, or compromises.

 

[Timcognito]

I recently bought a Audio Technica AT-LP120XBT-USB with a AT-VM95ML cartridge upgrade after a long time of wanting to play my record collection that I haven't listened to in 20+ years. My old Dual 505 is out of commission due to degraded belts and sticky mechanisms. This is a relatively simple repair that has been on my to-do list for years, but keeps getting pre-empted by higher priority tasks.

My major requirement was for a turntable that I could pull out and listen to 20, 30 years from now. A "forever" turntable in terms of reliability, if not sonic quality. That means no belts to degrade. No automatic mechanisms to get sticky and need cleaning and lubrication. So direct drive and manual operation were requirements.

Another factor for me is that I don't have a conventional stereo system any more. My stereos consist of self-powered speakers and a WiiM. I don't have a phono preamp and an integrated amplifier. I don't have a stereo rack to put those things in. I don't want a bunch of wires either. So built-in preamp and Bluetooth were requirement. A USB output was a nice-to-have feature in case I want a digital copy of a rare recording.

The AT-LP120XBT-USB was the best turntable I could find with direct drive, manual, and Bluetooth. That said, it is definitely not the greatest turntable. The specs are mediocre. (I do not find the noise level bothersome but I can hear the pitch instability). The body is plastic. It does not have good acoustic isolation, despite having a heavy steel plate inside to add mass and isolation feet. The tone arm does not have vertical tracking adjustments or azimuth adjustments (although the latter can be added by using a different headshell, and the former can be accomplished by changing mat thickness). The anti-skate is badly calibrated on my unit, and needs about 1/2 the suggested anti-tracking. The supplied AT-VM95E cartridge is OK but shows the same limitations that every bonded elliptical stylus does. And of course, audiophile purists will sneer at internal preamps and positively scorn Bluetooth.

None of that matters to me. The sound with the AT-VM95ML cartridge upgrade is delightful (that's one audio upgrade that produces obvious audible benefits for relatively little cost). The build quality isn't an issue - I listen near-field at modest levels so the acoustic pickup of the turntable isn't an issue, and the wireless connection allows me to place it across the room from the speakers. And most importantly, I am greatly enjoying my 500+ records that I haven't heard in decades, and rediscovering old favorites I had long forgotten. So, mission accomplished, and $570 very well spent!

Perfect, now stay away from the Analog Planet website.

 

[computer-audiophile]

...now stay away from the Analog Planet website.

Why this? What is happening there?

 

[Timcognito]

Why this? What is happening there?

Every crazy thing in expensive TT.

 

[pseudoid]

I have an oft-forgotten two-word suggestion:

• Dust cover.

If you happened to be OCD about 'dust';then, there is another suggestion:

• A wash cloth size towel on the dust-cover

 

[computer-audiophile]

I have an oft-forgotten two-word suggestion:

• Dust cover.

If you happened to be OCD about 'dust';then, there is another suggestion:

• A wash cloth size towel on the dust-cover

 

[Boltman92124]

Good morning,

I have an Audio Technica LP60 that I've had for the past five years and finally want to upgrade to a new forever turntable. My budget is $500 and I've been looking at Fluance RT85 and Pro-ject Debut series, but not sure which one of the two would be a better deal. Any other recommendations or insights are welcome.
Thank you.

The AT Lp140x has lots of happy owners. Sells for $499 now with a basic XP-3 cartridge (which will accept the vm series styli). Direct drive, sturdy build (weighs almost twice as much as a Project Debut or Fluance), easy to change headshells and cartridges. Plus I believe the RT85 comes with a bonded Nag MP-110 now instead of the superior 2M Blue (nude elliptical). My two cents. A Rega P1 will have a much better tonearm than the Project or Fluance for a few more bucks as well (if you want to stay with belt drive).

 

[computer-audiophile]

The AT Lp140x has lots of happy owners

Yes, this one is a better built than the 120 and has no bottleneck like the integrated phono-USB interface. But Sorry, as we are here in ASR: The S/N of -50dB is not SOTA.

I don't know the design from the interior, but the heavy weight of the 120 e.g. is achieved by a simple metal sheet on the bottom.

 

[Boltman92124]

Yes, this one is a better built than the 120 and has no bottleneck like the integrated phono-USB interface. But Sorry, as we are here in ASR: The S/N of -50dB is not SOTA.

I don't know the design from the interior, but the heavy weight of the 120 e.g. is achieved by a simple metal sheet on the bottom.

How does the LP140x have a S/N? There's no gain stage inside it. Isn't that figure coming from the XP-3 cartridge in the spec? The phono stage and cartridge used with it will determine audio performance.

 

[computer-audiophile]

How does the LP140x have a S/N? There's no gain stage inside it. Isn't that figure coming from the XP-3 cartridge in the spec? The phono stage and cartridge used with it will determine audio performance.

You can translate it in 'rumble', 'motor-noise', 'bearing-noise' etc.

AT-LP140XP​	​
Type	3-speed, fully manual operation
Motor	High-torque DC motor
Drive Method	Direct drive
Speeds	33-1/3 RPM, 45 RPM, 78 RPM
Turntable Platter	Die-cast aluminium
Starting Torque	2.2 kgf-cm
Wow and Flutter	<0.2% WRMS (33 RPM)
Signal-to-Noise Ratio	>50 dB
Output Level	5.5 mV nominal at 1 kHz, 5 cm/sec
Power Supply Requirements	115/230V AC, 60/50 Hz
Weight	10.0 kg
Pitch Variation	+/-8% or +/-16% or +/-24%

 

[Boltman92124]

You can translate it in 'rumble', 'motor-noise', 'bearing-noise' etc.

AT-LP140XP​	​
Type	3-speed, fully manual operation
Motor	High-torque DC motor
Drive Method	Direct drive
Speeds	33-1/3 RPM, 45 RPM, 78 RPM
Turntable Platter	Die-cast aluminium
Starting Torque	2.2 kgf-cm
Wow and Flutter	<0.2% WRMS (33 RPM)
Signal-to-Noise Ratio	>50 dB
Output Level	5.5 mV nominal at 1 kHz, 5 cm/sec
Power Supply Requirements	115/230V AC, 60/50 Hz
Weight	10.0 kg
Pitch Variation	+/-8% or +/-16% or +/-24%

Well, I have my doubts as to the AT spec, it does say greater than 50db The vinyl format isn't good for much more than 60db of S/N anyway. If this table does have more motor noise or rumble than a belt drive, that could be the case. Project TT's are notorious for producing motor hum for instance. I bet that doesn't show up in their spec. Like I said, the phono preamp and cartridge will be more important IMO.

 

[Mean & Green]

Well, I have my doubts as to the AT spec, it does say greater than 50db The vinyl format isn't good for much more than 60db of S/N anyway. If this table does have more motor noise or rumble than a belt drive, that could be the case. Project TT's are notorious for producing motor hum for instance. I bet that doesn't show up in their spec. Like I said, the phono preamp and cartridge will be more important IMO.

The current Debut range doesn’t suffer with motor hum. They have taken steps to decouple the motor in the current generations plinths. Granted previous generations did have issues but they have addressed that it seems. A typical Debut has a S/N of 69db.

 

[_thelaughingman]

I think the more I've read up on suggestions and forums, Direct drive is the way to go.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Well, I have my doubts as to the AT spec, it does say greater than 50db The vinyl format isn't good for much more than 60db of S/N anyway. If this table does have more motor noise or rumble than a belt drive, that could be the case. Project TT's are notorious for producing motor hum for instance. I bet that doesn't show up in their spec. Like I said, the phono preamp and cartridge will be more important IMO.

It's fine if you're happy with your AT turntable. Depending on what albums you listen to, it might not be that important. In my opinion, the S/N should be around 70 or better, then it won't bother you in practice. You can then be sure that the noise you hear is from the record.

Wow and flutter is also not very good with 0,2%. This is especially important when you listen to classical music. Then it's about a stable piano tone during decay e.g.

My Pro-Ject The Classic, for example, is specified with 70dB S/N and delivers an absolutely stable sound. No hum whatsoever. Even my very old and humble Thorens TD 150 from the sixties had -65 dB rumble and 0.09 wow and flutter. So it was better than the Audio-Technica of today.

 

[Boltman92124]

It's fine if you're happy with your AT turntable. Depending on what albums you listen to, it might not be that important. In my opinion, the S/N should be around 70, then it won't bother you in practice.

Wow and flutter is also not very good with 0,2%. This is especially important when you listen to classical music. Then it's about a stable piano tone during decay e.g.

My Pro-Ject The Classic, for example, is specified with 70dB S/N and delivers an absolutely stable sound. No hum whatsoever. Even my very old, very simple Thorens TD 150 from the sixties had -65 dB rumble and 0.09 wow and flutter. So it was better than the Audio-Technica of today.

I don't have one of these actually. Technics M7L. The $500 price point seems to have multiple contenders for the OP. There are so many factors that introduce noise to vinyl. Most of all the LP itself. Love the format anyway! Glad you enjoy your nice TT's!

 

[mike70]

Tangential tone arms would certainly be worth a thread of their own. In general, they have not established themselves in the market, they remain exotic. I could not make friends with them either.
I like 12" tonearms, which also minimize the tracking error angle somewhat. Like my Schick 12" for example.

Minimize the tracking error but ... more prone to vibrations?

 

[computer-audiophile]

Minimize the tracking error but ... more prone to vibrations?

Good point!