The Waxwing Thread

[AaronJ]

I read through the Waxwing user manual and it seems like this could be used at the line level, so I have a question about a use case.

Right now I have a handful of sources going into my Sansui AU-5500 integrated. Turntable into the phono input through a SUT, streamer, tuner, and CD player on the other inputs. I have a MiniDSP Flex in the pre-out/main-in loop for DSP. I very much love this setup but I'm wondering if it could make sense to stick a Waxwing between the pre-out and the MiniDSP Flex at -0db volume, 0db gain, and "Line In" EQ instead of "Phono", while running the Magic function.

Basically all the line output from the Sansui would be processed through the Waxwing's Magic function with no additional signal processing. In theory if this works it should still be able to remove pops and clicks without altering any of the rest of the content no matter the source. I also wonder if it could help with needle drops like all the RidingEasy Brown Acid Trip LP's that sometimes have obvious quality issues.

 

[antcollinet]

I read through the Waxwing user manual and it seems like this could be used at the line level, so I have a question about a use case.

Right now I have a handful of sources going into my Sansui AU-5500 integrated. Turntable into the phono input through a SUT, streamer, tuner, and CD player on the other inputs. I have a MiniDSP Flex in the pre-out/main-in loop for DSP. I very much love this setup but I'm wondering if it could make sense to stick a Waxwing between the pre-out and the MiniDSP Flex at -0db volume, 0db gain, and "Line In" EQ instead of "Phono", while running the Magic function.

Basically all the line output from the Sansui would be processed through the Waxwing's Magic function with no additional signal processing. In theory if this works it should still be able to remove pops and clicks without altering any of the rest of the content no matter the source. I also wonder if it could help with needle drops like all the RidingEasy Brown Acid Trip LP's that sometimes have obvious quality issues.

But what is the benefit compared with using it as a phono pre?

If it is in circuit with everything then it will be adding its (albeit small) normal noise and distortion to everything - including digtal sources - which dont need magic,

Plus it is almost certainly a better phono pre amp than the one built into your Sansui.

 

[Salt]

Agree with @antcollinet : use it as TT-Preamp. That it is made for.

 

[Bacek]

First test was a classical album from 1958, Dvorak's New World Symphony. It sounded bad previously.

Are they clean? I think first thing is to ensure records are clean. Then any pre would have much easier work.

 

[Brian Hall]

Are they clean? I think first thing is to ensure records are clean. Then any pre would have much easier work.

Yes. Cleaned with the Spin-Clean record wash kit.

 

[JaccoW]

When I saw the title I thought of Waxwing bags, a maker of classy bicycle bags.

 

[early rejecter]

But what is the benefit compared with using it as a phono pre?

He wants to improve the sound of digital files (and perhaps other non-vinyl recordings) that were sourced from noisy vinyl:

it should . . . be able to remove pops and clicks . . . no matter the source . . . it could help with needle drops like all the RidingEasy Brown Acid Trip LPs.

 

[Brian Hall]

"it could help with needle drops"

I hate that term. Dropping the needle is not a good idea. Need some other description.

 

[early rejecter]

Need some other description.

I’m not sure if you mean you wish people used a different phrase or if you’re asking for a definition, but if the latter it simply means a recording of a vinyl record.

 

[Brian Hall]

I’m not sure if you mean you wish people used a different phrase or if you’re asking for a definition, but if the latter it simply means a recording of a vinyl record.

The phrase is bad. The needle should never be dropped on a record. Only gently lowered. What kind of monster came up with that phrase?

 

[Brian Hall]

I have a question about the gain setting for the Waxwing. The default out of the box was 38db. I played one of the Led Zeppelin record and it showed a triangle indicator which means it detected clipping. I lowered the gain to 37db and that record played with no clipping indicator. Another showed clipping so I lowered the gain to 36db. That record played ok then.

Repeat for other records. I have the gain down to 33db now and haven't seen the clipping indicator again yet. Has anyone else had this happen? I'm using an ortofon 2m blue cartridge.

 

[Bob from Florida]

I have a question about the gain setting for the Waxwing. The default out of the box was 38db. I played one of the Led Zeppelin record and it showed a triangle indicator which means it detected clipping. I lowered the gain to 37db and that record played with no clipping indicator. Another showed clipping so I lowered the gain to 36db. That record played ok then.

Repeat for other records. I have the gain down to 33db now and haven't seen the clipping indicator again yet. Has anyone else had this happen? I'm using an ortofon 2m blue cartridge.

Where are you seeing the "triangle" clipping indicator? I set the gain using the real time "Levels" with particular attention to the "Peak ADC" numbers. With a Hana SL 56 db gain gives me "Peak" levels around -9 db.

 

[Brian Hall]

Where are you seeing the "triangle" clipping indicator? I set the gain using the real time "Levels" with particular attention to the "Peak ADC" numbers. With a Hana SL 56 db gain gives me "Peak" levels around -9 db.

In the Waxwing app, it has the Gain option on the second line. The clipping indicator (triangle) appears between the lock icon and the "Gain" text. When I tapped the triangle it popped up a box that said clipping was detected. Lowering the gain setting made the clipping indicator go away.

 

[Bob from Florida]

In the Waxwing app, it has the Gain option on the second line. The clipping indicator (triangle) appears between the lock icon and the "Gain" text. When I tapped the triangle it popped up a box that said clipping was detected. Lowering the gain setting made the clipping indicator go away.

Well, I just learned another feature! If you look at the peak ADC levels, what do you see with your current cartridge / gain combination?

 

[Brian Hall]

Well, I just learned another feature! If you look at the peak ADC levels, what do you see with your current cartridge / gain combination?

 

[Brian Hall]

I increased the gain to 39db to make it show the clipping indicator. The clipping was not caused by a bad record. The grading for the record I had playing was A.

 

[Bob from Florida]

I increased the gain to 39db to make it show the clipping indicator. The clipping was not caused by a bad record. The grading for the record I had playing was A.

I keep my peaks around -10 db on the ADC input and have never seen the clipping indicator. I noticed the DAC output is 0 db on yours at the 39 db gain setting. I wonder if that is the source of the clip.

 

[AaronJ]

What about the Air +2 setting you have? Might this be clipping any high frequency content? Ortofon 2M Blue is a very hot cart specced for 5.5mV output which is pretty high for running 39db of gain so I’m not surprised if you’re getting some clipping on peaks.

I don’t have a waxwing yet but I’ve messed around in the app a bit. The little tooltip shows max DAC output is 2.1V and max ADC input is 1.05V. What could be causing your input to be only 7.5db down from 1.05V? That’s a transient of 425mV. And 425mV incidentally is 38db of gain for 5.5mV so makes me wonder where in the chain the gain is added. Seems like it may actually be occurring before ADC?

 

[Bob from Florida]

What about the Air +2 setting you have? Might this be clipping any high frequency content? Ortofon 2M Blue is a very hot cart specced for 5.5mV output which is pretty high for running 39db of gain so I’m not surprised if you’re getting some clipping on peaks.

I don’t have a waxwing yet but I’ve messed around in the app a bit. The little tooltip shows max DAC output is 2.1V and max ADC input is 1.05V. What could be causing your input to be only 7.5db down from 1.05V? That’s a transient of 425mV. And 425mV incidentally is 38db of gain for 5.5mV so makes me wonder where in the chain the gain is added. Seems like it may actually be occurring before ADC?

If you change gain - it will be reflected in average and peak levels reported at the ADC input. There may be additional gain in the digital domain - Shannon could answer that. It safe to assume all RIAA and equalizer adjustments are in digital space. All I do is pick a "loud" record and leave 10 db of headroom in peak input levels. I have not seen the clip triangle yet doing it this way. I am using optical out to a Schiit Modius - balanced output, so I get an extra 6 db of gain there. But that gain is not related to the Waxwing.

 

[AaronJ]

If you change gain - it will be reflected in average and peak levels reported at the ADC input. There may be additional gain in the digital domain - Shannon could answer that. It safe to assume all RIAA and equalizer adjustments are in digital space. All I do is pick a "loud" record and leave 10 db of headroom in peak input levels. I have not seen the clip triangle yet doing it this way. I am using optical out to a Schiit Modius - balanced output, so I get an extra 6 db of gain there. But that gain is not related to the Waxwing.

If you don't clip the ADC you shouldn't clip the DAC right? Looks like the DAC adds another 3db to get to 2.1V max output. Could messing with the EQ (Air +2) cause the clipping issues Brian is seeing on the DAC side?