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The Truth About Vinyl Records

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Justdafactsmaam

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Again BS. No two vinyl needle designs sound alike, some not remotely.

Oh but any two rooms and speaker systems are. You are diving into the absurd.

Which one is an accurate representation of the source (the ditch).

More BS, Antiquated designs from the vinyl era.
This is a modern studio.
View attachment 353703
That’s nice. Here’s another one from the modern era. It’s this obscure studio called Abby Road. What speakers do you see there?


So do you limit your listening to recordings only made in modern control rooms just like the one you cited and only dedicated Dolby Atmos multichannel recordings? If so that’s your thing. I listen to a wide variety of recordings made many different ways. Most of which were from the “vinyl era” so do many other audiophiles. Do I need to post a variety of pictures of various control rooms over the years to prove my assertion that there is no way in hell you can know what was heard in those studios when those classic recordings were made?

You’re dipping into cognitive dissonance in your defense of Your disdain for other people’s preferences. The idea that vinyl playback varies more than speakers and rooms is plainly absurd. This new argument of consistency in control rooms ignores most of the history of recorded music.

Go back, watch JJ’s lecture and pay attention. You can’t judge accuracy of anything that preceded the source signal you have at hand.

Accuracy does not equate preference and preference does not equate accuracy. Your preferences are not special or better
 
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Newman

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I don't believe that the circle of confusion is nearly as powerful as some believe. Throughout recording history, generally the control room has been better treated than domestic listening rooms, and the dynamic range and frequency response in the control room has been greater than most domestic setups. So mixing engineers have heard the master in higher fidelity to the instruments in the studio than anyone else.
Well, not if they are using a Yamaha NS10, or quite a few B&W monitors with non-flat responses. And going by many reports that is a too-common occurrence.
They mixed what they did for a reason. Finally mixing engineers are not cloth eared and can freely move between the control room and studio and frequently do so, and will spot aberrations. So, aside from deliberate "production effects" we have to assume what leaves the studio and heads to the mastering lab is what was intended! What leaves the mastering lab is definitely in a circle of confusion, however.
Agreed, except for the "they will spot aberrations" bit. This assumption needs more testing, because there seems to be quite a few problems documented to arise from the widespread use of aforementioned coloured monitors.
 

Newman

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...Here’s another one from the modern era. It’s this obscure studio called Abby Road. What speakers do you see there?...
Exactly. Which just serves to show that there is still work to be done in reducing the circle of confusion. It doesn't prove it's hopeless. Rather, it shows that the entire art and system of recording music and bringing those expensive productions to the home without losing the stupendous and exacting sound quality that many of those productions have, is a goal worth having, and every person in the system can play their part in making further progress. Education of all involved will facilitate this. And even though it will never be perfect, progress is doable and worthwhile.
 

DSJR

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Oh but any two rooms and speaker systems are. You are diving into the absurd.


That’s nice. Here’s another one from the modern era. It’s this obscure studio called Abby Road. What speakers do you see there?


So do you limit your listening to recordings only made in modern control rooms just like the one you cited and only dedicated Dolby Atmos multichannel recordings? If so that’s your thing. I listen to a wide variety of recordings made many different ways. Most of which were from the “vinyl era” so do many other audiophiles. Do I need to post a variety of pictures of various control rooms over the years to prove my assertion that there is no way in hell you can know what was heard in those studios when those classic recordings were made?

You’re dipping into cognitive dissonance in your defense of Your disdain for other people’s preferences. The idea that vinyl playback varies more than speakers and rooms is plainly absurd. This new argument of consistency in control rooms ignores most of the history of recorded music.

Go back, watch JJ’s lecture and pay attention. You can’t judge accuracy of anything that preceded the source signal you have at hand.

Accuracy does not equate preference and preference does not equate accuracy. Your preferences are not special or better
I wonder if they 'paid' for the speakers in use there. Polylgram of old never did I was told by an engineer there... Just posting a pic of a well known studio complex with a given set of speakers in use as monitors is enough to generate plenty of promotion...
 

Justdafactsmaam

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Well, I reckon those words in quote marks say that some of it is snake oil. Not much of it, but some of it.
You reckon incorrectly

You disagree?
Yes

What do you think they say, then?

“I’m free to support what I want to, and little of it is in the category we would both agree is snake oil.”
None of it is snake oil?
No “little of it is in the category we would both agree is snake oil”

All of it is snake oil?
No “little of it is in the category we would both agree is snake oil

Or are you just being pedantic? if I am right, and he is indeed saying that some of the gear he supports is snake oil, then I'm not misrepresenting him at all, and you are just being OTT aggressive ...and wrong, too.
I believe he has already made it clear that you are not right. Are you going to argue with him about what he meant by what he said?

I’ll spell it out for you. He was not saying anything he supports is snake oil. He was considering the possibility that you and he may not agree on what is and what is not snake oil in every single case. And if that isn’t clear enough he was acknowledging that there are some things that he does not consider snake oil that he will defend that you might label incorrectly as snake oil. You know, like vinyl.
 

Justdafactsmaam

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OK, answer me this then. Here is a very common scenario. Someone does a sighted listening test and prefers the sound of speaker A over speaker B. Then he does a blind listening test and prefers the sound of speaker B over speaker A.

Which speaker does he inarguably prefer the sound of?
You said you understood JJ’s lecture. Your question suggests you failed to digest a great deal of it.

I bet you thought this was quite the gotcha question. But the answer is clear and……inarguable despite being a hypothetical. He inarguably preferred speaker A over speaker B in his first comparison done sighted and then he inarguably preferred speaker B over speaker A in his second comparison done blind.

I don’t think you really understood JJ’s lecture. He covered this. Perception is affected by all the stimuli we take in. Preferences can change. Preferences are inarguable. If you actually understood all of those key points you would see the futility of your question and the utter obviousness of the answer.
 

Newman

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Newman

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I bet you thought this was quite the gotcha question. But the answer is clear and……inarguable despite being a hypothetical. He inarguably preferred speaker A over speaker B in his first comparison done sighted and then he inarguably preferred speaker B over speaker A in his second comparison done blind.
I didn’t ask which speaker he preferred. Read carefully.
 

Justdafactsmaam

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I didn’t ask which speaker he preferred. Read carefully.
“Which speaker does he inarguably prefer the sound of?”

He inarguably preferred the sound of speaker A over speaker B in his first comparison done sighted and then he inarguably preferred the sound of speaker B over speaker A in his second comparison done blind.

It was your hypothetical. It’s what *you* said. If you want to argue with the content of your hypothetical at this point I will leave you to it.

Rinse, wash and repeat

perception is the amalgamation of all the stimuli we are taking in.

Preferences can change.

Preferences are inarguable
 

Sal1950

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So do you limit your listening to recordings only made in modern control rooms just like the one you cited and only dedicated Dolby Atmos multichannel recordings?
Boy you really love to make things up as you go along.
It's mostly a waste of time to debate anything with you.
You’re dipping into cognitive dissonance in your defense of Your disdain for other people’s preferences.
I have no disdain, I simply make the point that the analog LP is a badly flawed media to use
for high quality music reproduction in 2024. That's the facts, use whatever makes you happy.
Oh but any two rooms and speaker systems are. You are diving into the absurd.
What do you find so absurd, High Fidelity ???
The idea is to eliminate the variables, that was one of the crowning accomplishments
of digital recording/playback and the CD. We have done much the same in the rest of the electronic
chain over the last few decades, there is little if any difference in the sound of correctly designed
products. Now if we could only do the same with speakers we'd really
be getting somewhere in eliminating the circle of confusion. Today measurements using tools
like Amir's Kippel system and the publishing of the results will lead many manufacturer to
building more accurate speakers. Combining them with the latest advancements in DRC
gets us ever closer to closing the circle.
YMMV

Exactly. Which just serves to show that there is still work to be done in reducing the circle of confusion. It doesn't prove it's hopeless. Rather, it shows that the entire art and system of recording music and bringing those expensive productions to the home without losing the stupendous and exacting sound quality that many of those productions have, is a goal worth having, and every person in the system can play their part in making further progress. Education of all involved will facilitate this. And even though it will never be perfect, progress is doable and worthwhile.
How perfectly said!
The position of many here is to throw any idea of HiFi out the window.
That's fine for them but not what started this industry or is still about.
What part of "His Masters Voice" don't they understand?
his masters voice.jpeg
 

antcollinet

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OK, answer me this then. Here is a very common scenario. Someone does a sighted listening test and prefers the sound of speaker A over speaker B. Then he does a blind listening test and prefers the sound of speaker B over speaker A.

Which speaker does he inarguably prefer the sound of?
It probably doesn't matter. Enjoyment is what matters.

When they are listening for enjoyment it is not going to be blind. If the view of that beautiful speaker, or bright white cones, or technical looking design - or whatever it is that is doing it - causes them to enjoy the music more - who really cares.

Again - as long as they don't preach "this is the way", and they are not being ripped off by being persuaded to spend stupid money on poor performance by bogus marketing - it really doesn't matter.
 

MattHooper

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Well, I reckon those words in quote marks say that some of it is snake oil. Not much of it, but some of it.

You disagree? What do you think they say, then? None of it is snake oil? All of it is snake oil? Or are you just being pedantic?

Because if I am right, and he is indeed saying that some of the gear he supports is snake oil, then I'm not misrepresenting him at all, and you are just being OTT aggressive ...and wrong, too.

It's already been explained to you:

Again:

“I’m free to support what I want to, and little of it is in the category we would both agree is snake oil.”

Means there are two categories:

Category 1: Audio gear we would both agree is snake oil.

Category 2: Audio gear we might disagree on as being snake oil.


Little
of what I support would be in category 1. I'm sure we'd agree on many things we both consider snake oil.

It's possible that a little of what I support might be in category two - where we may disagree on the item being "snake oil."

Do you understand now? The "little of it" is not in the category I BELIEVE TO BE "snake oil" - the "little" is in the category of "we may not agree on it being snake oil."

So..no, I was NOT saying I support snake oil. I wrote that very carefully because I'm aware there are likely some fringes if disagreement, especially given a lot of what I've seen you (and some others) write.

Do you REALLY think that the most likely reading of what I wrote was that I support what I believe to be snake oil? Or were you a bit rash in jumping to conclusions that favour your negative opinion of my views?

If you ever accurately represent my view, I'll be the first to happily congratulate you.
 
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MattHooper

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I have different, less acidic, reasons for not supporting the notion of "artist intent" (normally meaning the musicians) as a goal of the playback system.

I think it's the wrong objective for assessing the success of a reproduction medium.

I think musicians are too rarely concerned with the sonic nuance of the recording, for their intent (in the sense of art) to be considered present in the final recording. (This link also refutes your argument in #707 that artist signoff on vinyl test pressings in bygone days means those recordings best document the artistic intent of the musicians.)

I think there is a different work of art, involving different artists than just the musicians, that IS present in the final recorded artwork, and that CAN be preserved and brought to the home. And that minimising the circle of confusion will maximise the chances of this happening. And that is an appropriate goal for sound reproduction at home. Not just for me, but as a generalisation. And if people reject it, I don't criticise them as humans, that would be silly, but I can make a statement with respect to their standards for sound reproduction: they aren't as high as the standards of some others.

I appreciate your point of view here, as well as I admire the way you have thought through the ideas.

It's my view that "The Goal" for audiophiles or sound reproduction sits in enough conceptual quicksand that any goal is ultimately a compromise, and so different approaches can be reasonable. It's possible to define a Goal fairly tightly, but it's the REASONS for the goal, which is ultimately what we care about, that make for the quicksand and no approach I'm aware of ties things up in a neat bow, all settled.

So for instance, in support of what you are saying: we shouldn't let The Perfect be the enemy of The Good. We don't need to have perfect reproduction of the goal, in order to be able to progress towards it, or stray in the opposite direction. And Toole offers a path towards your stated goal: tightening the circle of confusion. So: mixing rooms adopt more consistent standards, home playback devices adopt standards of playback that will more closely mimic what they heard in the mixing room.

Perfectly understandable if someone wants to take that approach.

On the other hand, while a reasonable guiding light, it can't solve the circle of confusion, due to the history of recorded music. So when you say, from your link:

Accuracy to the original production is achievable, not unobtainable.

Agreed...in principle, and certain situations. Where you are indeed at home reproducing the sound, closely enough, to the sound in a particular mixing theater when making the music.

But that is clearly not achievable for much of the history of recorded music. The situations, rooms, playback gear is so varied in the countless available recordings there is no way you could replicate them (currently) in your home, and often simply no way to even know what you are trying to replicate! So, no, in the bigger picture, closing the circle of confusion isn't possible. UNLESS perhaps you want to limit yourself to only more modern recordings where you know the mixing room set up, or have good reasons to think the set up would produce the sound you mirror in your home. But that surely is a truly teeny fraction of recorded music, and so it's also reasonable for someone to say they are not going to pursue that as their goal, and find some other goal more compelling.

So, again, not dismissing the goal as you describe it or saying it's unreasonable for you or anyone to go that route. Only pointing out it doesn't truly solve some of the fundamental elements in terms of justifying THE Goal for sound reproduction, and so various approaches may be reasonable.
 

Robin L

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What part of "His Masters Voice" don't you understand?
That there are built-in resonances in that acoustic horn and the fact that those resonances don't seem to matter to the dog. Also, the fact that there were those in the transition from the acoustic to the electrical recording eras who found electrical recording false sounding in spite of the obvious technical improvements of electrical recording and playback. "HMV" was a trademark and a sales pitch initiated in the acoustic era. It never conformed to reality. "HMV" recordings of classical music are now under the banner of "Warner Brothers" with the subheading of "Parlophone", an imprint initially for comedy and light classics prior to becoming the label best known for the Beatles. The Beatles recordings are still sold as Parlophone, but now are managed by Universal, which previously was the USA imprint of Decca, not to be confused with UK's Decca. There is quite a bit of irony in all of that.


nipper.jpg
 
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antcollinet

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Justdafactsmaam

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I have different, less acidic, reasons for not supporting the notion of "artist intent" (normally meaning the musicians) as a goal of the playback system.

I think it's the wrong objective for assessing the success of a reproduction medium.

I think musicians are too rarely concerned with the sonic nuance of the recording, for their intent (in the sense of art) to be considered present in the final recording. (This link also refutes your argument in #707 that artist signoff on vinyl test pressings in bygone days means those recordings best document the artistic intent of the musicians.)

I think there is a different work of art, involving different artists than just the musicians, that IS present in the final recorded artwork, and that CAN be preserved and brought to the home. And that minimising the circle of confusion will maximise the chances of this happening. And that is an appropriate goal for sound reproduction at home. Not just for me, but as a generalisation. And if people reject it, I don't criticise them as humans, that would be silly, but I can make a statement with respect to their standards for sound reproduction: they aren't as high as the standards of some others.
There is nothing acidic about acknowledging the objective reality that we don’t know the artists’ intentions unless the artists explicitly state them.

All of your personal reasons are very speculative and are founded on assumptions and hear say. But it matters not. Since artists’ intentions are unknown they never get out of the gate as an objective reference regardless of why any of us worry about them. Or don’t worry about them.

Ultimately we like what we like. The reasons may be real or in many cases not. What is acidic is audiophile fanboy gate keeping.
 

Axo1989

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There is nothing acidic about acknowledging the objective reality that we don’t know the artists’ intentions unless the artists explicitly state them.

All of your personal reasons are very speculative and are founded on assumptions and hear say. But it matters not. Since artists’ intentions are unknown they never get out of the gate as an objective reference regardless of why any of us worry about them. Or don’t worry about them.

Ultimately we like what we like. The reasons may be real or in many cases not. What is acidic is audiophile fanboy gate keeping.

Yes, absent actual statements of intent, what an artist was aiming for with respect to sonic qualities of a particular work/recording is somewhat cryptic. We can appreciate the work (or not) and infer things from composition, instrument/sample/effects choices, mixing and the sound we get from our reproduction setups, but that only gets us so far.

For many genres of modern music there's a collaboration between artist and producer (when they aren't the same person) and/or between collaborating artists in a group, and so on, which broadens assigning intent as well. I also think the level of differentiation that audiophiles and audio-scientists alike perceive and discuss can sometimes be well beyond what the artist/producer has in mind. Most performers/producers would be aware of the wide range of listening situations and setups people use to enjoy music. That's not to downplay the skill involved in assembling complex and multi-layered sonic collage in studio.
 
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Sal1950

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There is nothing acidic about acknowledging the objective reality that we don’t know the artists’ intentions unless the artists explicitly state them.
It's on the source, at least a digital source.
Analog > vinyl sources have to be altered to cut and press.
 

Justdafactsmaam

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It's on the source, at least a digital source.
Analog > vinyl sources have to be altered to cut and press.
You don’t know that. I can cite a perfect example. I worked with David Grohl a few years back and asked him about various masterings of the Nirvana catalog. He went on a small tirade about how Universal “completely f**ked up the mastering” on the most recent CD reissues and ironically said if you didn’t have the original vinyl you had no idea how the recordings actually sounded.


Yes one example. But a classic example that illustrates you don’t know unless the artist tells you.


And I don’t know David Grohl’s intent even after talking to him. I don’t know what system he uses. I do know this though, he thought the CD reissues were “totally f**ked up.”

And you can find recent interviews with Donald Fagan talking about how great the AP vinyl remaster and reissue series is. Different mastering than can’t be found on any commercial digital release.

Two examples just off the top of my head

You don’t know.
 
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