The Truth About Vinyl Records

[Anton D]

gEEECH! i WOULD LOVE TO HEAR THESE OLD HORNS.
(ooops caps)

Exactly!

 

[Sal1950]

Lots of deaf audiophiles, I guess.

Yep, pretty much.
Can't find any measurements on the Silbatone 300b amp but I imagine they're pretty similar to
the new Western Electric 91E that John Atkinson measured at Stereophile on Oct 2022. He tries his best
not to be insulting to a advertiser spending big bucks there.
"The Western Electric 91E is an intriguing mix of modern technology—the computer-optimized tube biasing, the precision volume control, the front-panel meters—and almost-century-old tube technology. Its measured performance is what I would expect from an amplifier with a single-ended output stage that uses a single 300B tube. Given its high levels of both harmonic and intermodulation distortion, even at lowish powers, it will work best with loudspeakers that have a 4 ohm nominal impedance and high sensitivity.—John Atkinson"

Western Electric Type No.91E integrated amplifier Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I performed the measurements of the Western Electric 91E with my Audio Precision SYS2722 system. I carefully installed the tubes following the instructions in the excellent manual, and after turning on the amplifier, waited for the 91E to optimize the bias for the 300B...

www.stereophile.com

 

[antcollinet]

Are all those people simply deaf and wrong?

Those people (and people like them) are precisely why this site is needed.

People declaring wonderful sound from substandard gear from sighted listening, over the last 40 years, has resulted in the present situation where cables for 10's of K are sold routinely with a straight face "yes of course you need to spend 10% of your budget on cables"

Why a large segment of the customer base believes you cant get good sound for less than $10,000, and why there are so many ludicrous "magic" accessories like grounding boxes, cable lifters, audiophiles fuses FFS and random static objects (like crystals) to put on your gear all of which will make night and day differences to your sound - oh, and sold at utterly ludicrous prices.

And why people who are conned into buying this junk believe they hear an amazing improvement in the sound - even though it is only coming from expectation (etc) biases.

 

[antcollinet]

This hobby is about keeping our ears and minds open.

But not so open your brains fall out.

 

[antcollinet]

For me, it's about enjoying the journey. There are many many great stops on the way!

These are enjoyable devices that many besides myself find beguiling. Read the links, do a little investigation of your own.

There is more than one path, and we can enjoy the hobby as we please. Again, you haven't heard it, so your opinion on it's sound is rather humorously moot.

Does your system sound good, to you? Great. Is it the pinnacle of the relentless scientific path toward sonic nirvana? Bless you heart, that's hard work. Just don't insist other people can't enjoy something different than your gear.

I apologize if I got you all frothy. Relax and play a record, or not.

Next show you go to, give them 5 minutes of your time and prepare to enjoy! I'll even buy the first round as a fellow music lover!

Dude, less of the condescension - it is not a good look, especially when speaking to some of our most respected members.

And the "journey" you are describing - which though it might be a good and fine hobby - is not about HIFI.

 

[JP]

Those people (and people like them) are precisely why this site is needed.

People declaring wonderful sound from substandard gear from sighted listening, over the last 40 years, has resulted in the present situation where cables for 10's of K are sold routinely with a straight face "yes of course you need to spend 10% of your budget on cables"

Why a large segment of the customer base believes you cant get good sound for less than $10,000, and why there are so many ludicrous "magic" accessories like grounding boxes, cable lifters, audiophiles fuses FFS and random static objects (like crystals) to put on your gear all of which will make night and day differences to your sound - oh, and sold at utterly ludicrous prices.

And why people who are conned into buying this junk believe they hear an amazing improvement in the sound - even though it is only coming from expectation (etc) biases.

Ignorance and gullibility provide the opportunity for that to happen, not people enjoying an experience, regardless of the capability of their kit.

 

[Anton D]

Those people (and people like them) are precisely why this site is needed.

People declaring wonderful sound from substandard gear from sighted listening, over the last 40 years, has resulted in the present situation where cables for 10's of K are sold routinely with a straight face "yes of course you need to spend 10% of your budget on cables"

Why a large segment of the customer base believes you cant get good sound for less than $10,000, and why there are so many ludicrous "magic" accessories like grounding boxes, cable lifters, audiophiles fuses FFS and random static objects (like crystals) to put on your gear all of which will make night and day differences to your sound - oh, and sold at utterly ludicrous prices.

And why people who are conned into buying this junk believe they hear an amazing improvement in the sound - even though it is only coming from expectation (etc) biases.

I mentioned that these speakers sound surprisingly good. Don't conflate. It was not a validation of magic wires and was also not an attack on the fine scientific minds driving their own hobby as they desire .

 

[Anton D]

Dude, less of the condescension - it is not a good look, especially when speaking to some of our most respected members.

And the "journey" you are describing - which though it might be a good and fine hobby - is not about HIFI.

Condescension would be asking someone to give something a listen?

It's all about Hi Fi...please don't play at owning words.

My post was about how surprisingly close the speakers I mentioned actually get close to modern technology. That seems to have triggered a certain someone who started spouting dogma.

I would now wager no one here has ever been to actually hear them. So, what year did Hi Fi begin, I'll stick to that time frame for now!

 

[levimax]

For me being an educated recorded music hobbyist/ enthusiast is learning how measurements correlate to what I hear in order to understand what is important and what is not so I can get the most bang for my buck on my kit. Something can be learned from the fact that SOTA 100 years ago got so much right with so little technology and this doesn't in any way detract from today's SOTA.

 

[Anton D]

For me being an educated recorded music hobbyist/ enthusiast is learning how measurements correlate to what I hear in order to understand what is important and what is not so I can get the most bang for my buck on my kit. Something can be learned from the fact that SOTA 100 years ago got so much right with so little technology and this doesn't in any way detract from today's SOTA.

Bingo!

 

[antcollinet]

Condescension would be asking someone to give something a listen?

:

Again, you haven't heard it, so your opinion on it's sound is rather humorously moot.

Bless you heart,

I apologize if I got you all frothy. Relax and play a record, or not

This is only heading one way.

 

[antcollinet]

Ignorance and gullibility provide the opportunity for that to happen, not people enjoying an experience, regardless of the capability of their kit.

Ignorance, perhaps - but it doesn't have to be wilful ignorance.

The trouble with the way our brains work is they are really really good at fooling us. If someone (most people) have not been exposed to how that works, then it is more than natural to assume that what they perceive as the sound is the reality of the sound. It is the perveyors of the snake oil taking advantage of that fact that I hold responsible - not the naiveté of the punters.

You are right though - I was unfairly poining the finger at people enjoying an experience. Probably not the same purveyors.

However the problem here comes with the re-enforcement of the view that only listening matters. That when we hear something that sounds amazing, the only logical conclusion is to covet the kit we are listening to, rather than to think about, and understand how our brains might be influenced by the sight of all that horn goodness**.

** yes, I would like to hear it also.

 

[JP]

However the problem here comes with the re-enforcement of the view that only listening matters. That when we hear something that sounds amazing, the only logical conclusion is to covet the kit we are listening to, rather than to think about, and understand how our brains might be influenced by the sight of all that horn goodness**.

** yes, I would like to hear it also.

And there are people that will prefer the experience of horn goodness even if they understand the technicality and psychology of it all, as the sound waves are only part of the equation. Sometimes knowledge changes perception, and sometimes it doesn't.

 

[antcollinet]

And there are people that will prefer the experience of horn goodness even if they understand the technicality and psychology of it all, as the sound waves are only part of the equation. Sometimes knowledge changes perception, and sometimes it doesn't.

Trudat. Sometimes the fun is just in looking at what is producing the sound.


If funds were unlimited I could see my listening room containing ludicrous huge horn speakers. It'd be a much bigger room than where I am right now also.

 

[Anton D]

Trudat. Sometimes the fun is just in looking at what is producing the sound.


If funds were unlimited I could see my listening room containing ludicrous huge horn speakers. It'd be a much bigger room than where I am right now also.

Agree.

Stupid Powerball (Lotto) won't fund my idea for a Hi Fi playground.

I'd buy a ticket, but my odds of winning wouldn't change!

 

[antcollinet]

I'd buy a ticket, but my odds of winning wouldn't change!

You are verifiably mathematically wrong on that front. They would change an infinite amount.

 

[JP]

Trudat. Sometimes the fun is just in looking at what is producing the sound.


If funds were unlimited I could see my listening room containing ludicrous huge horn speakers. It'd be a much bigger room than where I am right now also.

My vice is Japanese statement turntables.

 

[Anton D]

My vice is Japanese statement turntables.

Lovely to behold.

I think it is part of the past now, but there used to be a 'audio' website that reviewed gear purely by its knob feel. Cracked me up.

I see those great old tables and even looking at them is fascinating.

 

[JP]

Lovely to behold.

I think it is part of the past now, but there used to be a 'audio' website that reviewed gear purely by its knob feel. Cracked me up.

I see those great old tables and even looking at them is fascinating.

I get that. Completely.

 

[Sal1950]

And there are people that will prefer the experience of horn goodness even if they understand the technicality and psychology of it all, as the sound waves are only part of the equation. Sometimes knowledge changes perception, and sometimes it doesn't.

??? I don't know if it was you intent or not but you've make that statement tinged with a insinuation that all horns sound bad, which they absolutely do not.
Much of todays SOTA speaker market revolves around horn designs from the JBL's to Genelec's (although Genelec and many others prefer to avoid using any "horn" terminology instead preferring the "wave guide" handle. LOL
We started this piece of thought-line over the sound of a 1927 public address theater speaker and it's amplification. It may very well be capable of creating some fairly pleasant sound, as long as you have no interest in hearing what's actually on whatever recording you chose to play.

I've owned nothing but horns since 1979 and know-understand the horn speaker market about as well as anyone without a degree in EE.

These are enjoyable devices that many besides myself find beguiling. Read the links, do a little investigation of your own.
There is more than one path, and we can enjoy the hobby as we please. Again, you haven't heard it, so your opinion on it's sound is rather humorously moot.

I don't actually have to hear this particular system to have a damn good idea what's coming out of it.
You can take whatever "path" pleases you. But if you open your wallet to things like 300B SET amps, that path will walk you off the edge of a flat earth when positioned against modern amplification. At least if your at all interested in hearing the source without a bunch of "enjoyable" distortions added to it..