The Truth About Vinyl Records

[Anton D]

They didn't, there's musical information missing that could have been there IF modern digital recording tech had existed then.
But it didn't....

I do not know if you have heard that recording.

I'd be interested in your opinion.

If you also think it sounds great, then my question returns, "Well, how did it get there?"

Then, we could compare it to a 2023 recording and see how we think it holds up for comparison with whichever aspects of sonics we prefer to compare.

There is musical information missing from all recordings, maybe we simply differ over the percentage we have gained? I have not exactly been bowled over by the quality of any method of recording, they all fall woefully short, so maybe I am more forgiving of the failures.

I have been to Hi Fi shows where Silbatone is demonstrating and they have terrific (terrific) sound that comes from 100 year old speakers and amps. It's utterly amazing. Listening to those babies really makes ya wonder just how much we have accomplished in the meantime. My answer would be that the average person has easier access to higher quality sound, but those caveman Western Electric systems will spin your head!

Munich Hi-End

It’s a strange world. More hifi exotica than hi-end. But it seems there’s a market for this. Indeed there is. I'm not sure how much of the customer base is in Europe, but that so much of the gear emanates from Europe (and is shown at this trade show in Munich) perhaps heightens the cachet that...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I am certainly not trying to sell you any! They are just examples of what could be accomplished from such a vintage!

 

[Anton D]

I have. I heard music coming from a small bar once that advertised "Live" music and was convinced it was a live performance. Alas, the musician was on break and a CD was playing. Often when I hear a live band playing I know it is live because inevitably one or two instruments are playing too loud for the rest of the band or the timing isn't perfect. All things that are "corrected" in the studio.

Is that sort of the old "live in the next room" feeling?

I've had that twice.

If only the illusion could withstand turning that corner into the bar/room/space.

There is something about 'live' I can't really put my finger on. An artist can plop down on the mic at a place and strum the guitar once and it's instantly 'differentiateable' (made up word) from any recording they might have been playing on the same system up until that second.

I can't tell you where that frisson comes from, but I bet we've all experienced it.

 

[MattHooper]

The OP was fine until it fell into this: "Don’t forget, the reproduction equipment cant put back what is missing from the disc mastering process. Speaking of which, due to the the amount of missing and compromised information on an LP, it can’t really be considered “HiFi” in the current era. Compared to the excellent capabilities of digital recording, especially in the area of dynamic range, noise, wow & flutter and accuracy, a vinyl LP and it’s playing method is thoroughly primitive."

I gotta ask: do you only listen to digital recordings?

I guess recency chauvinism is inevitable.

I like vinyl but it's perfectly fine to define "Hi-Fi" in a way that will generally rule out records as "high fidelity." If digital is the new standard in fidelity, records ain't "hi-fi" in that sense. Now, in terms of actual sonics, some records can sound very close to the higher fidelity digital counterpart. But broadly speaking, you don't go to vinyl for the highest fidelity in recreating the source signal.

And I don't see any problem in describing it's playing method as "primitive." Relative to streaming from my phone to my system? I have no problems thinking of it as very old, even "primitive" technology.

It can sound surprisingly good though, as many of us here point out.

 

[Sal1950]

Now I'm curious to see how you shop for gear!

Mainly by measurements, then reputation of the builder for reliability.
Using a digital source going forward thru the chain, unless there was a bad or intended screwup in
design, all modern electronics are going to sound pretty much the same.

Only the speakers leave a big variability in sound.
And here also the measurements will tell you much of what you need to know.
That and radiation patterns will greatly effect in-room sound.
If you have some experience you can pick something close to fitting your personal preferences
IE, none are perfect, you have to choose what best suits you.
But here again, choosing something that will deliver a relatively flat FR at your listening chair will
best represent what the artist-engineer intended.
YMMV

 

[DonR]

Is that sort of the old "live in the next room" feeling?

I've had that twice.

If only the illusion could withstand turning that corner into the bar/room/space.

There is something about 'live' I can't really put my finger on. An artist can plop down on the mic at a place and strum the guitar once and it's instantly 'differentiateable' (made up word) from any recording they might have been playing on the same system up until that second.

I can't tell you where that frisson comes from, but I bet we've all experienced it.

Its likely because you can actually see the band playing and thus your brain influences you.

 

[Anton D]

Its likely because you can actually see the band playing and thus your brain influences you.

That must be it.

 

[Anton D]

And I don't see any problem in describing it's playing method as "primitive." Relative to streaming from my phone to my system? I have no problems thinking of it as very old, even "primitive" technology.

It can sound surprisingly good though, as many of us here point out.

No issue here, either!

Microphone technology and most amplifier and electrical circuits, speakers driver types, etc... all predate LPs!

The bulk of Hi Fi's underlying technology is plenty primitive.

When you look at the basic parts of most of our gear, primitive predominates!

 

[Sal1950]

I have been to Hi Fi shows where Silbatone is demonstrating and they have terrific (terrific) sound that comes from 100 year old speakers and amps. It's utterly amazing. Listening to those babies really makes ya wonder just how much we have accomplished in the meantime. My answer would be that the average person has easier access to higher quality sound, but those caveman Western Electric systems will spin your head!

Your head, maybe.
I hate to put it this way but if you've sat at these Silbatone demos and found that 100 YO system coming even close to a modern SOTA rig there's something badly amiss in your
powers of critical listening.
I've heard plenty of that stuff at past shows also, even owned some it many decades back, it's really only capable of making somewhat pleasant levels of highly distorted sound.
The fact that your not able to deduce the shortcomings of that system, from that of real modern High Fidelity sound, says a lot about whats wrong here.
I would highly suggest you take a year or so to hang out at this site and learn a little bit about the design and capabilities of modern HiFi equipment before you start telling us
about the glorious "head spinning" sound from 1923 technology.

 

[Anton D]

I have spent time next to audio manufacturers who found it enrapturing, as well. It can be pretty damned great.

Actually give it a try.

At which shows have you heard Silbatone playing?

Like I mentioned somewhere else, enjoying audio is not a zero sum game.

There may be more

Silbatone Amplifiers, Western Electric Horns

The South Korean company Silbatone manufactures exquisite pure tube and hybrid audio amplification that's specifically engineered to be un-conventional, un-compromised, and un-affordable. About that last characteristic: It's un-affordable because it's not for saleand everyone knows you have to...

www.stereophile.com

Brilliant Corners #6: Munich from the Back of the Bus

Alex Halberstadt (front) listens to the BAACH-SP Adio system at High End Munich. (Photo: Jason Victor Serinus)

www.stereophile.com

"Powered by Silbatone monoblocks using a single VT-2 globe triode from 1918, the 12Bs reproduced Maria Callas singing Verdi arias and Led Zeppelin's "Whole Lotta Love"—from original vinyl—with gob-smacking dynamics and utterly natural sound."

Munich High End 2014: Day 1 Continued

How good does it get? I think I'm closer to having an answer to that one.

www.stereophile.com

"The Silbatone room proved to be the crossroads of this audio world—colleagues from every walk of audio life described it as the highlight of the show."

There may be more on Heaven and Earth, sir, than are dreamt of in your philosophy!

Are all those people simply deaf and wrong?

 

[Holmz]

No issue here, either!

Microphone technology and most amplifier and electrical circuits, speakers driver types, etc... all predate LPs!

The bulk of Hi Fi's underlying technology is plenty primitive.

When you look at the basic parts of most of our gear, primitive predominates!

It is not our fault that god created physics.
If you want sound, then one needs to vibrate air, so you are going to need a force, and it not strong, week, gravitational…

Maybe basic would be a better word than primitive?


People go on and on about about CDs having distortion levels that have SNR level > 100dB.
OK, fine… it is true.

And they listen to through speakers with distortion levels ~ -30 to -20 dB.

It is pretty much like worrying about what disease the fleas & ticks can give you, from the Rottweiler that is coming at you at F1 speed like you’re their next pork chop.

 

[levimax]

Your head, maybe.
I hate to put it this way but if you've sat at these Silbatone demos and found that 100 YO system coming even close to a modern SOTA rig there's something badly amiss in your
powers of critical listening.
I've heard plenty of that stuff at past shows also, even owned some it many decades back, it's really only capable of making somewhat pleasant levels of highly distorted sound.
The fact that your not able to deduce the shortcomings of that system, from that of real modern High Fidelity sound, says a lot about whats wrong here.
I would highly suggest you take a year or so to hang out at this site and learn a little bit about the design and capabilities of modern HiFi equipment before you start telling us
about the glorious "head spinning" sound from 1923 technology.

Nice, multiple strawmen plus ad hominem. Is that what a scientific forum is about? There are plenty of interesting scientific points to discuss around these comments including historical capabilities of audio gear, threashold of hearing, etc. There is no reason to put people down and it does not add anything to the discussion.

 

[DonR]

Personally, I could not tell the difference between a well-setup turntable playing a well-recorded album through reasonable electronics and a modern digital source. That is, until the surface noise crops up or the belt starts slipping or the needle becomes worn or the record warps.

 

[theREALdotnet]

Personally, I could not tell the difference between a well-setup turntable playing a well-recorded album through reasonable electronics and a modern digital source. That is, until the surface noise crops up or the belt starts slipping or the needle becomes worn or the record warps.

Or you have to get up 20 minutes into the concerto (or symphony or opera) to flip sides

 

[Sal1950]

Are all those people simply deaf and wrong?

Maybe both
Listening to the best of modern recordings on highly inaccurate & distorted antique gear.

Here's what 1925 recordings sounded like.
Being played back on top flight modern gear.

 

[Doodski]

Maybe both
Listening to the best of modern recordings on highly inaccurate & distorted antique gear.

Here's what 1925 recordings sounded like.
Being played back on top flight modern gear.

The noise! If the mains power was out, thunder and lightening happening with a fire crackling I could get into it but otherwise a fat, no.

 

[Anton D]

Nice, multiple strawmen plus ad hominem. Is that what a scientific forum is about? There are plenty of interesting scientific points to discuss around these comments including historical capabilities of audio gear, threashold of hearing, etc. There is no reason to put people down and it does not add anything to the discussion.

Back then, most of the final design stuff had to be done by ear.

Maybe both
Listening to the best of modern recordings on highly inaccurate & distorted antique gear.

Here's what 1925 recordings sounded like.
Being played back on top flight modern gear.

That's not what I was describing.

I am talking about using those speakers with modern recordings and electronics. Did you notice that Silbatone is the company that manufactures the electronic/amplification parts of the system?

So, I see you haven't heard the Silbatone systems, after all, or you would know that!

Here, read a little...

"Silbatone brought their gorgeous handmade gear to Munich–amps, DACs and more–and absolutely thrilled the audience. I don’t think I’ve heard a crowd applaud at the conclusion of every song played, but it happened here. So what did it sound like? Big yet pure. Imagine listening to “Yesterday” and Paul is about 15 feet tall, but it’s still unmistakably Paul. It’s heady, but it’s fun."

Silbatone | Munich 2023

Hi-Fi news, gear reviews, and interviews

parttimeaudiophile.com

Lots of deaf audiophiles, I guess.

 

[Anton D]

No Youtube is worthy of judging sound, but start this one at 4:14. Or, if you are in a rush, try 6:02.

Again, you can't really form a full opinion without actually hearing something, right? Feel free to compare that with the snippet you posted. (Anybody can go find bad sound.)

97 year old Hi Fi.

This hobby is about keeping our ears and minds open.

 

[Doodski]

gEEECH! i WOULD LOVE TO HEAR THESE OLD HORNS.
(ooops caps)

 

[Sal1950]

This hobby is about keeping our ears and minds open.

This "hobby" is called High Fidelity and has always been about increasing the accuracy of the recording and playback chains of music.
NOT "sounds good to me".

 

[Anton D]

This "hobby" is called High Fidelity and has always been about increasing the accuracy of the recording and playback chains of music.
NOT "sounds good to me".

For me, it's about enjoying the journey. There are many many great stops on the way!

These are enjoyable devices that many besides myself find beguiling. Read the links, do a little investigation of your own.

There is more than one path, and we can enjoy the hobby as we please. Again, you haven't heard it, so your opinion on it's sound is rather humorously moot.

Does your system sound good, to you? Great. Is it the pinnacle of the relentless scientific path toward sonic nirvana? Bless you heart, that's hard work. Just don't insist other people can't enjoy something different than your gear.

I apologize if I got you all frothy. Relax and play a record, or not.

Next show you go to, give them 5 minutes of your time and prepare to enjoy! I'll even buy the first round as a fellow music lover!