The three finest measuring and sounding loudspeakers currently available!

[JohnPM]

LF extension can be increased by modelling the drive unit's behaviour and driving it to its excursion limits to reproduce lower frequencies as long as the level is low enough. That's one of the things Devialet do in their SAM processing. As the level increases the driver would run out of excursion so the low frequency extension has to be dialled back accordingly. That's fine for domestic speakers, but for professional use the low end needs to remain available at high levels, so the money needs to be spent for better, larger drivers to provide a low end figure that is valid at the rated SPL.

 

[edechamps]

LF extension can be increased by modelling the drive unit's behaviour and driving it to its excursion limits to reproduce lower frequencies as long as the level is low enough. That's fine for domestic speakers, but for professional use the low end needs to remain available at high levels

Makes sense. It's a shame that a speaker like, say, the JBL LSR305, or the Kali LP-6, doesn't have that kind of "feature". I know some people would be very happy to be able to get more low frequency out of these without having to buy a subwoofer, as they listen at quite low levels anyway.

Mmm... I wonder if it would be possible to write some software that could characterize the capabilities of the woofer (e.g. THD vs. level vs. frequency) with a microphone, and then use that to feed parameters to a multiband compressor or something, with the goal of extending LF as much as possible depending on level. This way perhaps one could emulate this "feature" with any speaker.

 

[HammerSandwich]

IIRC, the Kii's limiter is somewhat similar, switching to higher XO frequencies as needed to reduce mid & tweeter excursion. Charlie Laub's work here might be of interest as well.

Speaking of clever DSP, I recently had an interesting experience listening to a friend's Amazon Echo. Not sure which model, exactly, but it's a little thing - about 1L. Incredibly informal auditioning suggested that it synthesizes bass by adding harmonics which fool you into "hearing" fundamentals it cannot actually produce. It can be stunningly effective, at least when you're looking at the tiny speaker. Harmonic distortion FTW, I guess.

 

[restorer-john]

As the level increases the driver would run out of excursion so the low frequency extension has to be dialled back accordingly. That's fine for domestic speakers,

I had a crazy thought the other day (in the shower of all places), that I wondered if some of these 'clever' Class D amplifiers had the equivalent of Wolkswagen's cheat-codes in their microcontrollers and/or DSPs.

They could sense whether they were being bench tested with sine waves or sweeps and adjust their performance to suit.

Then I wondered about DSP Class D driven speakers and how they could essentially cheat by optimising their performance at nominal typical listening levels or demonstration levels to the detriment of other listening levels. Just like a digital equivalent of the volume position dependant loudness control back in the day.

Does anyone test these all-in-one solution ampli-speakers at all different levels and plot their overall response? Do they model the equal loudness curves at all levels? Is that their big trick?

 

[edechamps]

Then I wondered about DSP Class D driven speakers and how they could essentially cheat by optimising their performance at nominal typical listening levels or demonstration levels to the detriment of other listening levels.

I wouldn't call that "cheating", though. It's a genuinely useful feature that allows the speaker to extend its low frequency response when used below its maximum output level. I would definitely want such a feature in my loudspeakers (if I didn't have a subwoofer, that is).

Does anyone test these all-in-one solution ampli-speakers at all different levels and plot their overall response? Do they model the equal loudness curves at all levels? Is that their big trick?

Well, comprehensive speaker tests include things like max SPL vs. frequency. That would reveal the true limits of the speaker. However I do agree that for this kind of "smart" speakers it would be useful to have some kind of frequency response vs. level graph as well, to show how the response changes as level is increased.

 

[restorer-john]

I wouldn't call that "cheating", though. It's a genuinely useful feature that allows the speaker to extend its low frequency response when used below its maximum output level.

No, I guess thats kind of true. It isn't cheating per-se if you consider these are no longer just speakers, but integrated speaker/amplifier/processor solutions. Hence my made-up term, 'Ampli-Speakers'. (powered speakers essentially)

Keith calls them the 'finest measuring and sounding loudspeakers', but they aren't just loudspeakers, so comparisons between them and passive speakers, separate amplifiers and DSP processing are not valid. They control the entire environment in one box, a walled garden like Apple if you will.

A bit boring if you ask me. I like to have limitless combinations with many hundreds of pieces of gear. But that's me.

You can't change or add a different amplifier- you are stuck with the Class D internals whether you like it or not. They turn themselves down when things get hot. They limit their low frequency extension and excursion when it gets hairy. They need firmware updates to fix bugs. It's a case of their way or the highway. Not remotely in the spirit of high fidelity as a hobby, a progression or a developing interest IMO.

Obviously, Ampli-Speakers will represent a greater part of the audio dollar as time goes on. Partly because people are lazy. Partly because people like to be told what to buy. They subscribe to heard mentality, group-think and desperately want to follow in the footsteps of a Guru or engage and be part of some unlikely rags to riches discovery of a giant killing product. Look at the popularity of crowd funded and Massdrop style purchases. Half the stuff doesn't see the light of day and yet people still line up for it. Makes me laugh.

Personally, I think these products are phenomenally overpriced. To the point of stupidity. The likelihood of cost effective repairs down the track for any of them is remote. The companies simply don't have the resources to be sitting on adequate supplies of spare parts. It will be 10 years down the track when OSs have moved on and compatibility will be non-existant. Support for gear will not be there and these $10K+ units will be expensive pot plant stands or put out on the curb for roadside collection.

I can still source original parts for TOTL amplifiers made in the 1970s. Speakers are a whole other game. Parts are finite, mostly held in small numbers and often unsupported after 5-7 years- ironically, when you will need them.

 

[Purité Audio]

The three designs Kiis/Dutch&Dutch and Grimm are far more than speakers that is correct they are complete systems, which does rather remove the ‘hobby’ aspect.
But they are the three finest speakers I have heard, out performing every passive design we match them against, irrespective of price.
Keith

 

[restorer-john]

that is correct they are complete systems

They clearly are that, Keith. To be perfectly honest, if I didn't have the history, vast collection and decades of experience with conventional HiFi, they would be extremely tempting as an end-game type solution.

And, for people prepared to wipe the slate clean, they may be just the ticket.

Cheers.

 

[edechamps]

Keith calls them the 'finest measuring and sounding loudspeakers', but they aren't just loudspeakers, so comparisons between them and passive speakers, separate amplifiers and DSP processing are not valid. They control the entire environment in one box, a walled garden like Apple if you will.

A bit boring if you ask me. I like to have limitless combinations with many hundreds of pieces of gear. But that's me.

Obviously, Ampli-Speakers will represent a greater part of the audio dollar as time goes on. Partly because people are lazy. Partly because people like to be told what to buy. They subscribe to heard mentality, group-think and desperately want to follow in the footsteps of a Guru or engage and be part of some unlikely rags to riches discovery of a giant killing product.

That might be a valid stance if what you care most about is "tweakability", but I think you'll agree that most people don't really care about that.

I wouldn't say that your approach is an effective way to get the best possible sound quality. I think it's fairly obvious that a fully integrated system has huge advantages over discrete components that are selected separately. Starting from the fact that the manufacturer can choose what amplifier to use so that they are perfectly matched to the driver. Actually, make that amplifierS, since lots of active speakers are bi-amplified, which by itself brings a number of benefits. The manufacturer can choose to do any kind of signal processing it wants (DSP, etc.) on the signal, because what's coming in is a low-level analog (or even digital) signal, which is much easier to work with than an amplified signal. For example: better crossovers, "tactical" EQ to fix response issues, protection circuitry, and the extended LF we were discussing. All of this is only possible because the loudspeaker and amplifier are integrated by the same manufacturer who can fine-tune the system as a whole.

As a consumer this also provides added peace of mind because you don't have to ask yourself questions like "is this amplifier a good match for this speaker", because the manufacturer already picked the amplifier for you, and the specifications and measurements for the speaker describe the behavior of the full end-to-end system from line level (or digital) to acoustic, making assessment and comparisons easier and removing some of the potential for "surprises".

It is for these reasons I never buy, nor recommend, any passive speakers. I always recommend active speakers such as JBL LSR30x, Kali LP, Neumann, Genelec. I guess that makes me your nemesis or something

 

[Purité Audio]

They are simply better, you simply hear a better, more accurate sound in your room than any other loudspeaker.
To come close to them you need two large ‘traditional’ loudspeakers at least two subs and some experience with room correction software.
Keith

 

[restorer-john]

It is for these reasons I never buy, nor recommend, any passive speakers. I always recommend active speakers such as JBL LSR30x, Kali LP, Neumann, Genelec. I guess that makes me your nemesis or something

Not my nemesis at all. Active speakers have always been fun little things, right from some of the very first commercial attempts, like some of the Philips MFB (motional feedback) 3 way units in the 1970s and early 80s. They were giant killers until you needed to repair them.

See, I've spent my five and a bit decades building and repairing, as well as selling and recommending High Fidelity gear too. I've seen a lot of what is flavour of the month come and go, multiple times. We had DSP in 1985 and it was amazing, but flawed. DSP in 2019 is better, but still not a universal panacea.

Powered speakers were always toys. You cannot put high power, truly high powered continuous rated traditional amplification in a speaker cabinet with no ventilation and expect long term reliability. Class D has helped to shift that paradigm a little, but comes at a price, noise being one of the side effects.

All your eggs in one basket. That basket needs to be value for money and reliable for the premise to have value. That is not proven yet and I doubt it will play out well in the long term.

I love passive speakers, especially small to medium 2 ways. Simply because they can be tailored to the system, the room and your requirements. I have literally hundreds of speakers and amplifiers. I can enjoy endless combinations and it's never boring. I'm not your typical HiFi aficionado, but then again, who is?

Right now, there are just 13 pairs of speakers (mostly small-medium 2 and 3 ways (Jamos/B&W/Dali/Energy/Gale/Mirage/Wharfedale/Dynaudio/Sonus Faber and Celestion) and a few towers- Mission/Infinity/Jamo/Mordaunt Short) in my listening room, and only one pair is active BTW. They are just toys bought for fun. The residual hiss at near field from the inbuilt Class D power amps makes them useless IMO. The KEF actives I listened to were also noisy at close range.

 

[Ilkless]

Not my nemesis at all. Active speakers have always been fun little things, right from some of the very first commercial attempts, like some of the Philips MFB (motional feedback) 3 way units in the 1970s and early 80s. They were giant killers until you needed to repair them.

See, I've spent my five and a bit decades building and repairing, as well as selling and recommending High Fidelity gear too. I've seen a lot of what is flavour of the month come and go, multiple times. We had DSP in 1985 and it was amazing, but flawed. DSP in 2019 is better, but still not a universal panacea.

Powered speakers were always toys. You cannot put high power, truly high powered continuous rated traditional amplification in a speaker cabinet with no ventilation and expect long term reliability. Class D has helped to shift that paradigm a little, but comes at a price, noise being one of the side effects.

All your eggs in one basket. That basket needs to be value for money and reliable for the premise to have value. That is not proven yet and I doubt it will play out well in the long term.

I love passive speakers, especially small to medium 2 ways. Simply because they can be tailored to the system, the room and your requirements. I have literally hundreds of speakers and amplifiers. I can enjoy endless combinations and it's never boring. I'm not your typical HiFi aficionado, but then again, who is?

Right now, there are just 13 pairs of speakers (mostly small-medium 2 and 3 ways (Jamos/B&W/Dali/Energy/Gale/Mirage/Wharfedale/Dynaudio/Sonus Faber and Celestion) and a few towers- Mission/Infinity/Jamo/Mordaunt Short) in my listening room, and only one pair is active BTW. They are just toys bought for fun. The residual hiss at near field from the inbuilt Class D power amps makes them useless IMO. The KEF actives I listened to were also noisy at close range.

Yet you can't deny that active - especially DSP - has a higher objective performance ceiling. It allows steeper filters, more accurate response shaping, time delays and phase linearisation - all things that allow the input signal to be transduced more accurately. For instance, the Horbach-Keele crossover can only be readily achieved through DSP:

Yet it also promises constant directivity on both the horizontal and vertical axis with non-coaxial drivers - something that is pretty much impossible with passive. This is an objective improvement in accuracy.

Would you have any problem with DSP if it was outboard and not as tightly-integrated/proprietary or only serviceable by the manufacturer? eg. if everyone had a MiniDSP and manufacturers basically sell the intellectual property (crossovers) to be loaded into those standardised boxes?

edit: Also Keith @Purité Audio , curious to know if you might consider selling uncommon, but innovative active speakers that straddle the gap (in size and price) between KEF LS50Ws and the Grimm, Kii and DD? There are some interesting pro audio options from the continent (that I was clued onto by a German family friend) that don't seem to be well-known in the Anglophone home audio scene. For instance, some that fascinate me are the KS Digital C5-Reference - uses a SEAS coaxial like Gradient, sealed, metal enclosure, DSP crossover with phase linearisation. Have written to their engineers before and was quite impressed. There's also these guys that do sealed floorstanders with AMT tweeters and DSP crossovers, and these guys who are analog active, but have a SEAS coax monitor with very good directivity through the crossover region.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Not my nemesis at all. Active speakers have always been fun little things, right from some of the very first commercial attempts, like some of the Philips MFB (motional feedback) 3 way units in the 1970s and early 80s. They were giant killers until you needed to repair them.

See, I've spent my five and a bit decades building and repairing, as well as selling and recommending High Fidelity gear too. I've seen a lot of what is flavour of the month come and go, multiple times. We had DSP in 1985 and it was amazing, but flawed. DSP in 2019 is better, but still not a universal panacea.

Powered speakers were always toys. You cannot put high power, truly high powered continuous rated traditional amplification in a speaker cabinet with no ventilation and expect long term reliability. Class D has helped to shift that paradigm a little, but comes at a price, noise being one of the side effects.

All your eggs in one basket. That basket needs to be value for money and reliable for the premise to have value. That is not proven yet and I doubt it will play out well in the long term.

I love passive speakers, especially small to medium 2 ways. Simply because they can be tailored to the system, the room and your requirements. I have literally hundreds of speakers and amplifiers. I can enjoy endless combinations and it's never boring. I'm not your typical HiFi aficionado, but then again, who is?

Right now, there are just 13 pairs of speakers (mostly small-medium 2 and 3 ways (Jamos/B&W/Dali/Energy/Gale/Mirage/Wharfedale/Dynaudio/Sonus Faber and Celestion) and a few towers- Mission/Infinity/Jamo/Mordaunt Short) in my listening room, and only one pair is active BTW. They are just toys bought for fun. The residual hiss at near field from the inbuilt Class D power amps makes them useless IMO. The KEF actives I listened to were also noisy at close range.

I suppose it depends whether you feel like messing around with equipment or listening to music at the time.
I like and appreciate the kit, since I am an engineer, but only do an intense comparison of kit very infrequently to see if I think something is worth buying, then I leave it alone and use it to listen to music.
My last major dick about with equipment was in 2010 when I got a Devialet amplifier. The one before that in the mid 90s when I changed to Goldmund’s speakers and amps. I still have most of the old stuff but never use it - I use my Hi-Fi is for listening to several hours of music every day. I would have to make time to mess around with the kit and I can’t be bothered.
I won’t be changing from separate amps and speakers only because I am too old to change now. If I were to get these sorts of thing my concern would be reliability and repair possibility, but actually in the 50+ years I have been buying Hi-Fi I have had one need or repair, to one of the Goldmund monoblocs, and one bad experience of a dodgy dealer selling me a faulty new amp made by a manufacturer in the process of going bust. They took it in for repair and I never saw the amp or money again. That was 1970 before consumer protection legislation. So a fear of breakdown is not a strong feeling for me.

 

[Purité Audio]

Yet you can't deny that active - especially DSP - has a higher objective performance ceiling. It allows steeper filters, more accurate response shaping, time delays and phase linearisation - all things that allow the input signal to be transduced more accurately. For instance, the Horbach-Keele crossover can only be readily achieved through DSP:

View attachment 24732

Yet it also promises constant directivity on both the horizontal and vertical axis with non-coaxial drivers - something that is pretty much impossible with passive. This is an objective improvement in accuracy.

Would you have any problem with DSP if it was outboard and not as tightly-integrated/proprietary or only serviceable by the manufacturer? eg. if everyone had a MiniDSP and manufacturers basically sell the intellectual property (crossovers) to be loaded into those standardised boxes?

edit: Also Keith @Purité Audio , curious to know if you might consider selling uncommon, but innovative active speakers that straddle the gap (in size and price) between KEF LS50Ws and the Grimm, Kii and DD? There are some interesting pro audio options from the continent (that I was clued onto by a German family friend) that don't seem to be well-known in the Anglophone home audio scene. For instance, some that fascinate me are the KS Digital C5-Reference - uses a SEAS coaxial like Gradient, sealed, metal enclosure, DSP crossover with phase linearisation. Have written to their engineers before and was quite impressed. There's also these guys that do sealed floorstanders with AMT tweeters and DSP crossovers, and these guys who are analog active, but have a SEAS coax monitor with very good directivity through the crossover region.

Ilkless they all look interesting, but next year there will be more from Kii and D&D.
I might just wait.
Keith

 

[PierreV]

They are simply better, you simply hear a better, more accurate sound in your room than any other loudspeaker.
To come close to them you need two large ‘traditional’ loudspeakers at least two subs and some experience with room correction software.
Keith

Which is precisely where the fun lies for me. That's the difference between being a hobbyist and a consumer.

As a hobbyist, the reward is in the feeling that you have achieved something after having learned stuff and put it in practice. Even if, and probably also because it is somewhat pointless (and back-breaking when you crawl big woofers in a home theater). A big part of the fun is in the process.

As a consumer, I guess the reward would be some kind of bragging rights as in "I proudly own what experts, dealers, and reviewers describe as probably the best speaker in the world".

Now, the sets definitely overlap, as it is difficult to be a hobbyist without being a customer, so I am not claiming it is black and white or there is only one right way. But it is a different mindset.

 

[Purité Audio]

You are still a consumer, you just have slightly lower sound quality, but if buying and swopping equipment is your hobby...
Keith

 

[Ilkless]

Ilkless they all look interesting, but next year there will be more from Kii and D&D.
I might just wait.
Keith

Now you have me interested. Will there be anything more affordable from them that is just a bit larger than the LS50W form factor? 6.5-inch plus dome (but with smooth controlled directivity), extension to 40Hz at moderate SPLs (think 85dB peaks) is all I need. I'm fine with no cardioid.

 

[PierreV]

You are still a consumer, you just have slightly lower sound quality, but if buying and swopping equipment is your hobby...
Keith

Totally agree that I am still a customer. Don't necessarily agree that I have slightly lower sound quality, I heard the Kii and they did not impress me, at all, compared to my main stable system.

Keith, you come across as a competent and passionate dealer, but let's be realistic for a minute here: you would have told me exactly the same thing a year or so about the Kiis without their "active subwoofer" which would have been somewhat unrealistic. It may be that, today, the Kiis + BXT would deliver slightly better sound quality - I have not heard them - but the essence of my previous comment about part of the fun being in the process does not change. But I am willing to concede, based on what I read, that the KIIs + BXT dropped randomly in a random room would probably perform better than my separates dropped randomly in a random room.

Interestingly, the existence of those SOTA all-in-one speakers at the high-end could conceivably end up killing high-end dealers. Assuming an extremely high sound quality speaker correcting for positioning in virtually any room, no fancy separates or snake-oilish interconnects required, where and when is a dealer required? Where's the added value? I just had a couple of self-configuring woofers for the home theater. Bought them online, got them drop-shipped. A dealer would only have been useful at the unpacking stage. But then I still have kids around.

 

[Purité Audio]

Did you compare the Kiis against your current system in your room?
Hearing a speaker in isolation in an unfamiliar room doesn’t really tell you very much, comparing against your current system in your own room is very revealing.
These speakers just sound better, it isn’t Bs or snake oil just intelligent use of technology and good design .
It isn’t that your current speakers are poor, they just don’t/cant do what the Kiis/8Cs can.
Keith

 

[PierreV]

No, I did not. I heard them at a reseller, in a smaller room, which I assume is better optimized than my own room. And yet, even though the room wasn't large, they sounded, to my hear, like very good small speakers (which is why I said that maybe Kiis + BXT...).