The state of the art class D AUDIOPHONICS HPA-S600NC and AUDIOPHONICS HPA-S400ET sound different, though there is a caveat here.

[JustJones]

I place significant importance on blind tests when evaluating audio equipment. This approach minimizes biases and truly evaluates one's listening acumen. When conducting auditory comparisons, I predominantly rely on blind tests with accurately level matched equipment. In a soundproofed, acoustically treated room, I find it relatively straightforward to discern differences between amplifiers and other audio equipment. While home environments can present unique challenges due to reflections and room acoustics, with minimal interference, I believe one can still make accurate judgments.

Wow, pretty amazing.

 

[antcollinet]

No, I didn't level match other than by SPL. My hearing isn't the best at 67 years old I didn't really expect to tell which was which. I've also tried with a Benchmark AHB, same outcome. My interest was if in a more normal home listening environment instead of a meticulous studio the subtle differences mentioned could be heard.

My room isn't meticulously treated, I use PEQ in roon to compensate for my pedestrian living room.

Sorry - my reply was directed at @Apollon Audio but I did it as an add on to your post - which didn't make that exactly clear. I've edited my post to clarify.

 

[antcollinet]

I place significant importance on blind tests when evaluating audio equipment. This approach minimizes biases and truly evaluates one's listening acumen. When conducting auditory comparisons, I predominantly rely on blind tests with accurately level matched equipment. In a soundproofed, acoustically treated room, I find it relatively straightforward to discern differences between amplifiers and other audio equipment. While home environments can present unique challenges due to reflections and room acoustics, with minimal interference, I believe one can still make accurate judgments.

Ouch - you are really challenging the perception some of us have about audiblity of differences between amplifiers.

We might have to downgrade our position to "in typical home listening environments" and perhaps even add "and/or with typical untrained listeners"

 

[Apollon Audio]

Ouch - you are really challenging the perception some of us have about audiblity of differences between amplifiers.

We might have to downgrade our position to "in typical home listening environments" and perhaps even add "and/or with typical untrained listeners"

Thank you for your feedback and engagement on this topic. I'd like to clarify that my intention is not to challenge or refute anyone's experiences or perceptions. I respect and value the insights and knowledge of all members in this community. My aim is simply to share my personal observations and the knowledge I've garnered, hoping it contributes constructively to our collective understanding. As always, I believe that open dialogue, when approached with mutual respect, can only enhance our shared passion for audio and its intricacies.

 

[antcollinet]

Thank you for your feedback and engagement on this topic. I'd like to clarify that my intention is not to challenge or refute anyone's experiences or perceptions. I respect and value the insights and knowledge of all members in this community. My aim is simply to share my personal observations and the knowledge I've garnered, hoping it contributes constructively to our collective understanding. As always, I believe that open dialogue, when approached with mutual respect, can only enhance our shared passion for audio and its intricacies.

No problem. It is absolute fine (wanted even) for you to challenge us on our positions when you have objective evidence to do so. And this includes properly controlled blind tests.

 

[SIY]

You've claimed they sound the same 'identical' without objective evidence. Isn't that the same as me saying they sound different? Let's be consistent here. I was wondering if you listened to the amps in isolation from other speakers, if you used them with full range speakers, if they have matching power supplies, if they have matching OP amps, and what the sources are further up the chain, but according to you none of this matters. Lol

This is gibberish.

 

[SIY]

I place significant importance on blind tests when evaluating audio equipment. This approach minimizes biases and truly evaluates one's listening acumen. When conducting auditory comparisons, I predominantly rely on blind tests with accurately level matched equipment. In a soundproofed, acoustically treated room, I find it relatively straightforward to discern differences between amplifiers and other audio equipment. While home environments can present unique challenges due to reflections and room acoustics, with minimal interference, I believe one can still make accurate judgments.

Perhaps you could share details on this “straightforward to discern differences” since this contradicts a large body of publicly available data.

 

[Mnyb]

I place significant importance on blind tests when evaluating audio equipment. This approach minimizes biases and truly evaluates one's listening acumen. When conducting auditory comparisons, I predominantly rely on blind tests with accurately level matched equipment. In a soundproofed, acoustically treated room, I find it relatively straightforward to discern differences between amplifiers and other audio equipment. While home environments can present unique challenges due to reflections and room acoustics, with minimal interference, I believe one can still make accurate judgments.

I'll remain respectfully skeptical until this is repeated by several someone else , this level of performance between insanely good amps should be impossible to discern unless one drives an amp close to it's limits.
Amp should never clip and never be close to any other limit like current limiter in power supply or similar , if one choose to compare .

it places very high demands to do the test perfectly ' it's very hard to do .. I could not do that ? I'll suspect some unknown method error .
"Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence" as Carl Sagan said.

I's a different game if one tests and want's to find out the limits and if you can hear them .

 

[ommadusk]

View attachment 307628

The main speakers in my mixing and mastering setup are, ATC SCM 300, Amphion Two18 with BaseTwo25 subs, Neumann KH420 (not visible on the picture), Genelec 8351B. For our testing at Apollon we also use speakers like B&W 800 D3, Amphion 7LS, and some other brands.

Impressive.

 

[Apollon Audio]

I'll remain respectfully skeptical until this is repeated by several someone else , this level of performance between insanely good amps should be impossible to discern unless one drives an amp close to it's limits.
Amp should never clip and never be close to any other limit like current limiter in power supply or similar , if one choose to compare .

it places very high demands to do the test perfectly ' it's very hard to do .. I could not do that ? I'll suspect some unknown method error .
"Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence" as Carl Sagan said.

I's a different game if one tests and want's to find out the limits and if you can hear them .

Thank you for raising this point. While broad statistical data can provide valuable insights, it's also critical to delve into the nuances that may influence the performance and auditory perception of amplifiers. Here are several factors I've mentioned before that can result in audible differences between two amplifiers, even if their basic specifications might seem similar:

Measurement Limits: Standard measurements often highlight parameters such as frequency response, total harmonic distortion (THD), and signal-to-noise ratio (SNR). However, these specifications may not capture the entirety of an amplifier's performance. Elements like transient response, intermodulation distortion, and phase distortion, which can critically influence auditory perception, might not be explicitly measured or emphasized.

Load Interaction: The interaction between an amplifier and a speaker is dynamic. While two amplifiers might exhibit comparable performance under a resistive load, their behavior could vary significantly when paired with the complex impedance of real-world speakers.

Feedback Differences: The application of feedback in amplifier design can vary widely. Some amplifiers incorporate negative feedback to diminish distortion, while others might opt for minimal feedback to attain a particular sonic characteristic. This choice in feedback design can substantially influence the resulting sound.

Circuit Topology: The underlying circuitry of amplifiers, even those with similar surface-level specifications, can be remarkably different. A Class A amplifier, for instance, might produce a sound character distinct from a Class D amplifier, attributable to their inherent design differences.

In an acoustically well-treated environment, coupled with a trained ear that's attuned to these subtleties, it's entirely feasible to discern variations between different amplifiers. While broad data offers a macro perspective, the specificity of individual setups and conditions can lead to different experiential outcomes.

 

[ommadusk]

I had the NcoreX for two weeks and I played music for at least a few hours a day. I was unhappy with something. Especially the sound coming from the TV - I watch a lot of news. With music I wasn't getting much of a stereo effect so I started to think I need to upgrade my speakers. Since getting the Purifi I've played the music for 2.5 days non-stop. I did reangle my speakers a little bit but that was the only change. I'm hearing the stereo effect better than I've ever done. I'm not having any doubts anymore about my speakers, the DAC, the quality of the TV audio signal (ok that could be improved).

Will any of you who said it was my methodology concede you were wrong or at least you might have been wrong?

 

[Jimbob54]

There is a caveat. If anyone's been reading my posts lately I've been having a few issues with crackling, noise, and unbalanced sound in my speakers, and I have not completely determined that the NcoreX is not faulty.

I'd determine that before doing anymore comparisons.

 

[ommadusk]

I'd determine that before doing anymore comparisons.

You've waited this long before saying anything. Ok. I wasn't intending to do anymore comparisons.

 

[SIY]

Will any of you who said it was my methodology concede you were wrong or at least you might have been wrong?

When you compare ears-only and confirm that the crackling isn't present, then it's worth discussing. Until then, you're just making even more extraordinary claims with no controls.

 

[ommadusk]

When you compare ears-only and confirm that the crackling isn't present, then it's worth discussing. Until then, you're just making even more extraordinary claims with no controls.

Sorry, are you now saying that there's crackling and I can't hear it? Why didn't you say that before? I haven't had the issue for about 5 days. It may be that the amp was faulty but I don't remember you mentioning that before. You're very stubborn.

 

[SIY]

Here are several factors I've mentioned before that can result in audible differences between two amplifiers, even if their basic specifications might seem similar:

So now we have subtly changed "measurements" to "basic specifications."

Measurement Limits: Standard measurements often highlight parameters such as frequency response, total harmonic distortion (THD), and signal-to-noise ratio (SNR). However, these specifications may not capture the entirety of an amplifier's performance. Elements like transient response, intermodulation distortion, and phase distortion, which can critically influence auditory perception, might not be explicitly measured or emphasized.

Please give one example where distortion measurements, frequency response, and SNR over the audio range do not cover demonstrated audible differences. And of course transient and phase response are determined by frequency response unless an all-pass filter is deliberately built in, which is the case... never.

The rest of your post is filled with "could" and "might" with no specific examples- and the claim you made earlier was that there were audible differences between amplifiers whose performances are orders of magnitude better than audible thresholds.

 

[SIY]

You're very stubborn.

Yes, I am, when extraordinary claims are made with no controls and no evidence.

 

[SIY]

If anyone's been reading my posts lately I've been having a few issues with crackling, noise, and unbalanced sound in my speakers

Sorry, are you now saying that there's crackling and I can't hear it?

Get your story straight.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Get your story straight.

In all fairness I believe he wrote that it was gone before the "test".

 

[SIY]

In all fairness I believe he wrote that it was gone before the "test".

Just in case.