The REAL Problem of March Audio's Sointuva WG (Review, Measurements and Reinforcements with Klippel device)

[Doodski]

and even 200C

Wow. That must take a lot of qualifying ICs and parts. We peaked at ~14% success rate when qualifying them to 177C in the oven overnight. Thousands and thousands of ICs tossed in the garbage.

Was a very interesting job.

Nuclear would be a far out job for sure.

 

[Vini darko]

Good to see blue tack being put to its higher calling. Been using the stuff for years to achieve perfect sealing in speakers.
Edit: all you need is a bass sweep and ears to find the majority of problems. Kipple is massive over kill for sealing issues.

 

[Cars-N-Cans]

Wow. That must take a lot of qualifying ICs and parts. We peaked at ~14% success rate when qualifying them to 177C in the oven overnight. Thousands and thousands of ICs tossed in the garbage.

Nuclear would be a far out job for sure.

Yes, lots of time indeed. Many hundreds if not thousands of hours spent characterizing and testing various materials on my end. And lots of electronics testing as well. Even minor things can become big problems at high temperatures when stuff starts outgassing. Another thing I worked on was ruggedizing their photomultiplier tubes. I remember during my first interview a physicist showed me one of their super-sub compact tubes, and I thought it was quite quaint and asked what they used now. He was quite offended and responded that's our newest one! I did not know at the time that solid-state PMs are far, far too noisy at high temperatures, and that tube was actually very advanced inside.

 

[SDC]

Just to chime in, the binding post was well attached to the enclosure. But the socket Alan chose used hollow tube which caused the trouble.

Same as SBA off-the-shelf waveguide having sealing problem.

But plug leakage is easier to find, so it would have been nice if the hole was completely sealed from the beginning.

 

[Cars-N-Cans]

The socket used has hollow tube.

Too bad manufacturer of it advertised for both amp/ speaker. It should be amp only

Ah thanks. That's what I was trying to see is if it was just light coming through the insulator bushings. Evidently not.

 

[Chester]

If I could just say something and end off with one final question. Since you say you know how some folks appreciate data he provides (and I'm sure somewhere deep down you perhaps do yourself in virtue of both folks valuing measurements as a concept). You obviously then know we users hate seeing cool folks such as yourselves quibble over stuff like this especially when both sides claim they're willing to extend a hand in good faith (true or not is irrelevant currently). So I ask, is there ANY possible way, some sort of reconciliation is possible, not just for the sake of viewers, but for the sake of audio communities in general, and also for history's sake so outsiders don't get the self-forming images in their head that is fortified by objective review naysayers? Or am I just WAYYY off base here in asking this, and it's simply the matter of fact that you two have utterly irreconcilable value differences?

I'm not asking for public show of hugging it out, but perhaps that private phone call where you guys could (seperate from all community stakes and such) talk it out between one another.

I honestly think there's room for both players to see common ground in this situation. And I would wager many folks here would also side with me on that front with respect to this hope.

And at the end of it all, how fucking cool would it be from both sides, and from fans of both reviewers, to see some sort of happier end to this ordeal? Especially considering this whole thread mostly has it's guns aimed at March Audio rather than either of you honestly.

Hard to do if one side is using the other to try and generate profit.

I didn’t even know Erin had been banned and he seems nice enough, but he was clearly using the large audience here, that Amir has cultivated over many years, to drive traffic to his monetised channels.

My understanding is that ASR does not make a profit, the effort that goes into reviewing products regularly and running this place takes a lot of time and effort, all for the love of the hobby. So I’m not surprised someone was banned for taking advantage. Especially when they were regularly smarmy in their posts aimed at the site owner.

 

[SDC]

Ah thanks. That's what I was trying to see is if it was just light coming through the insulator bushings. Evidently not.

The hollow tube was why "tight banana plug" was needed. Quality part at wrong place I guess.

 

[thin bLue]

Except that would require a 100% turnaround in the attitudes that Alan has demonstrated here in response to issues anybody wanted to raise with any of his speakers.

Not impossible, but not backed by prior experience, i.e. the evidence.

We'll soon find out.

 

[ernestcarl]

Some of the negative back-and-forth could have been avoided altogether by simply communicating directly to Erin.

I have nothing more to add to this conversation... except, I hope Alan strongly considers the findings of the OP's report to implement immediate improvements and quality-check in his current (those not yet shipped) and future speaker builds.

 

[Doodski]

Yes, lots of time indeed. Many hundreds if not thousands of hours spent characterizing and testing various materials on my end. And lots of electronics testing as well. Even minor things can become big problems at high temperatures when stuff starts outgassing. Another thing I worked on was ruggedizing their photomultiplier tubes. I remember during my first interview a physicist showed me one of their super-sub compact tubes, and I thought it was quite quaint and asked what they used now. He was quite offended and responded that's our newest one! I did not know at the time that solid-state PMs are far, far too noisy at high temperatures, and that tube was actually very advanced inside.

That sounds complicated and challenging. I worked with a team of 11 engineers, a metallurgical engineer, a mathematician shareholder and the other 2 shareholder electrical engineers and patent holders for the ~3.25" square mylar sheet dual interleaved copper coils using reactance to quantify the torque and strain measures. Those went into I think it was ~8" bore hexagonal shaped hastelloy tools. Those where cool to work on. Most of the tools where the small bore stuff and so when the boss dropped 4 big 8" x 24" long hastalloy machined blanks on my workbench and said make me some tools I was overjoyed. It was a great experience and really opened my eyes to new processes, technology and ideas.

 

[Newman]

All that stuff is something I could fix up if I bought it.

The key problem is QC with the loudspeaker.

As far as I’m concerned March Audio’s reputation is dead to me (and they named the company one day too early! )

Why? Because these cottage industry products are a crap-shoot, and The One Thing that a buyer should be wanting to know about these, ahem, ‘hand built masterpieces’, is whether, as a buyer, they will have won the lottery and happenstanced upon a mob that has good skill and pays attention to detail, not just in design, but in construction detail, checking and testing.

Really clear evidence that this is not the case should be the death knell to the reputation of a cottage industry company. Because by nature they don’t have a Process, they don’t have Production: they just have Activity and Builds. So the problem is not “QC”, because there is no such thing at this level: they just have personal knowledge and care and attention and time allotted, which can change from day to day. ‘Control’ is the wrong word here: they simply are one of the good ones or one of the others. Good luck!

That’s why, once you see evidence that they might be one of the ‘others’, then no amount of niceness, and no amount of fixability of the flaws that were revealed (including Fix By The Customer LOL), and no amount of assurance that it won’t happen in future ‘production’ (never mind insisting that it is the component supplier’s fault), is sufficient to restore the damage done. Avoid.

 

[amarsicola]

I didn’t even know Erin had been banned and he seems nice enough, but he was clearly using the large audience here, that Amir has cultivated over many years, to drive traffic to his monetised channels.
...

I do not understand. Then what about the dozens of manufacturers that are basically building their business on this forum. Aren't they monetizing as well? So what's the problem with Erin. Because he did cheat? Is it really proven? Proven enough not to let him explain? Not sure what's going on here.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

My understanding is that ASR does not make a profit, the effort that goes into reviewing products regularly and running this place takes a lot of time and effort, all for the love of the hobby. So I’m not surprised someone was banned for taking advantage.

Basically, when you go to someone else's house, put your feet under their table and eat their food, you should follow their rules whether you like it or not. Jim

 

[mmi]

My understanding is that ASR does not make a profit, the effort that goes into reviewing products regularly and running this place takes a lot of time and effort, all for the love of the hobby.

Amir is a retailer who sells Revel products amongst others.

Edit for future readers regarding Amir's business from a reply later in the thread:

BTW, our company is not in retail business. Doesn't sell any JBL speakers. And we hardly do any stereo systems and when we do, it is here and there for wealthy non-audiophiles. While Harman enjoys the positive PR from a good review, it doesn't amount to a cent for our company. This site is my independent venture from Madrona Digital and I work hard to have a brick wall between them. When was the last time you saw me promoting Madrona Digital? You haven't right? This is the high bar I practice.

As I just explained, we are not in the business of selling any hi-fi gear. We do large scale projects for wealthy clients. If they want a stereo system in the bedroom, we put in an AVR, a TV (likely one that hides), and a couple of speakers which we build in if we can. Long time ago we decided we have no idea how to make money selling audio gear and got out of it and quick! Our business is all custom and much of it outside of audio. A lighting and shade system for a state may cost as much as $200,000 of business for us! We are not going to chase who can sell a couple of hi-fi speakers.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

4. A sealing issue in the tweeter-waveguide assembly?
When I was performing the measurement I could hear the sound coming out near the tweeter part.

View attachment 214822


and performed another nearfield measurement as in the picture above.


View attachment 214823View attachment 214824


And as you might already have expected there was a leak or resonance and I took action accordingly.

Can you post a close-up shot of the tweeter gap? It’s hard to see what you mean in that photo.

 

[thin bLue]

Btw, report shows SB Acoustics SATORI TW29BNWG has leaking problems, right?

Then, Doesn't SB Acoustics need to recall them?

 

[restorer-john]

Basically, when you go to someone else's house, put your feet under their table and eat their food, you should follow their rules whether you like it or not. Jim

Very good point.

 

[mmi]

Basically, when you go to someone else's house, put your feet under their table and eat their food, you should follow their rules whether you like it or not. Jim

Amir doesn’t follow his own rules then, or they are too loosely defined. Every single review he has done with subjective comparisons to Revels should be considered conflicted if transparency about monetisation is a goal. At the very least they should have a disclaimer.

Edit for future readers regarding Amir's business from a reply later in the thread:

BTW, our company is not in retail business. Doesn't sell any JBL speakers. And we hardly do any stereo systems and when we do, it is here and there for wealthy non-audiophiles. While Harman enjoys the positive PR from a good review, it doesn't amount to a cent for our company. This site is my independent venture from Madrona Digital and I work hard to have a brick wall between them. When was the last time you saw me promoting Madrona Digital? You haven't right? This is the high bar I practice.

As I just explained, we are not in the business of selling any hi-fi gear. We do large scale projects for wealthy clients. If they want a stereo system in the bedroom, we put in an AVR, a TV (likely one that hides), and a couple of speakers which we build in if we can. Long time ago we decided we have no idea how to make money selling audio gear and got out of it and quick! Our business is all custom and much of it outside of audio. A lighting and shade system for a state may cost as much as $200,000 of business for us! We are not going to chase who can sell a couple of hi-fi speakers

 

[YSC]

Amir doesn’t follow his own rules then, or they are too loosely defined. Every single review he has done with subjective comparisons to Revels should be considered conflicted if transparency about monetisation is a goal. At the very least they should have a disclaimer.

I think every single review have in the first few paragraphs saying he sells harman products, and take your own grain of salt

 

[Doodski]

Amir doesn’t follow his own rules then, or they are too loosely defined. Every single review he has done with subjective comparisons to Revels should be considered conflicted if transparency about monetisation is a goal. At the very least they should have a disclaimer.

The Revels are the standard he uses. Sometimes he does not use Revels. The Revels are good speakers so it makes sense that he uses what he has on hand to make reference to a standard.