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The quest for my hyper speaker - Very Large room dilemma

gnarly

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@aliqaz, in your situation you should probably follow @Mr. Widget's advice and try renting a few PA systems.
This would let you determine exactly what SPL/bandwidth you need to shoot for, and also try different directivity setups, all that backed up with (generally) accurate specifications and measurements. You might even want to try things like line arrays (why not) and cardioid bass, nearfield bass, etc.

Playing with these parameters you would also be able to evaluate what kind of room treatment you would have to resort to.
Your local PA rental companies might also be able to provide advice and guidance with less bias than installers, as their job is not to sell products.

In the end you would "just" have to replace those ugly boxes with something more house-friendly, but at least you would then have a clearer idea of what to look for.
You might even be able to get custom boxes build using the same drivers, etc.

Easier said than done, and probably a long endeavor, but better than shooting in the dark IMO.

Been my take all along. I still think a Meyer X-40 rig makes for a great first try.
A rental is bound to be available in a cosmopolitan city like Vancouver.
I'd go with whatever sub(s) the rental company suggested, or perhaps even a different rig if they could inspire confidence in their recommendation(s)
 

Duke

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I hope you aware that Revel has... cabinet diffraction issues

This is not obvious to me. Could you elaborate?
 

Inner Space

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Taken to the extreme this would mean we would be best off listening in an anechoic chamber. I don't believe that to be true. With speakers that have even off-axis response, some reflections wil indeed add to the experience of envelopment, width/depth of soundstage etc. These are somewhat "fluffy" concepts that are hard to measure, but they are not made up concepts.
Anechoic is a technical definition, and I have never found it necessary to go that far ... reflections some multiple tens of dBs down usually do the trick. And I know these aren't made up concepts - 99% of people live with them, after all. But it's a weird approach to fidelity ... how would you feel about e.g. source components or amplifiers that added obligatory delayed and somewhat altered reverbs to their outputs? Would you say that's a form of additive distortion, or would you say no, that's all good - they add to the experience? My view as a record maker is that I provide a finished product, and I'm not a huge fan of people adding extra stuff. Would you be, as a speaker manufacturer? Suppose people bought your (excellent, BTW) Manta, and mounted them in big metal bowls to add extra reverbs?
 

Duke

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Ideas about reflections have been bouncing around for the past few pages. Some of these ideas have been absorbed, some diffused, and some reflected specularly...

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

At the risk of further degrading the signal-to-noise ratio, here are some thoughts on the subject:

Imo the floor-bounce dip is most audible when it is the only significant early reflection. In most rooms, other early reflections arrive with enough intensity and with their dips at different frequencies such that they subjectively fill in the floor bounce dip. That being said, ime designs which mitigate or avoid the floor-bounce dip tend to sound more natural in the midbass (cello) region.

If anyone is up for a sighted listening test with all biases fully in play, try this: Indoors, preferably on a hard floor, have someone stand a few feet away and talk to you. Focus on the timbre of their voice. Then go outside and stand on a sidewalk out in the open. Have them talk to you again from the same distance, again focusing on the timbre of their voice. The floor-bounce dip was present in both situations, but other reflections were also present inside the room. Was there a difference in the timbre of their voice? If so, that difference was caused by the presence of reflections other than the floor bounce. Did those other reflections "warm up" the timbre of their voice? If so, then arguably those other reflections were filling in the floor-bounce dip.

Note that the floor bounce does not significantly affect imaging, as its arrival time is the same for both ears, or close enough. In contrast early sidewall reflections effect imaging, broadening the "apparent source width" in the direction of the sidewalls (and thereby widening the soundstage), but arguably degrading image precision and image depth. I am not an advocate of strong early sidewall reflections, but concede that this is a matter of personal preference.

Here are a few imo relevant quotes about reflections. First from psychoacoustics researcher David Griesinger ("GREE-zin-GURR"), whose work is mostly focused on large venues but the underling psychoacoustic principles are still applicable to home audio, we get the idea that early reflections have downsides:

"The earlier a reflection arrives the more it contributes to masking the direct sound."

"When presence is lacking the earliest reflections are the most responsible."

"Transients are not corrupted by reflections if the room is large enough [i.e. if the early-reflection-free time interval is long enough] - and 10 milliseconds of reflections free time is enough." [Sound travels about 13.5 inches per millisecond, so 10 milliseconds corresponds to the time it takes for sound to travel about 11 feet.]

Psychoacoustics researcher Earl Geddes, with the focus specifically on home audio:

"At mid and high frequencies, there are several factors that must be considered in the loudspeaker design that will present some formidable problems. At these frequencies
there are enough modes that the sound field and wave motion basically acts like a ray or beam of sound moving from the source and reflecting off of walls etc. – this is called the geometric or ray acoustics region. It is well know that reflections can be good and bad and it is critical that a loudspeaker designer understand the difference. One must look to psychoacoustics to determine what is required of the loudspeaker. There are a couple of characteristics of the ear that need to be understood in order to understand what is important in small room acoustics at mid to high frequencies. These are mostly related to how the human ear perceives reflections and diffraction. The perception of reflections and diffraction is a highly complex topic, but there are a few principles that are most important here:

"The earlier and the greater in level the first room reflections are, the worse they are. This aspect of sound perception is controversial. Some believe that all reflections are good because they increase the listeners' feeling of space – they increase the spaciousness of the sound. While it is certainly true that all reflections add to spaciousness, the very early ones (< 10 ms.) do so at the sake of imaging and coloration. There is no contention that reflections > 20 ms are positive and perceived as early reverberation and acoustic spaciousness within the space. In small rooms, the first reflections from an arbitrary source, mainly omni-directional, will never occur later than 10-20 ms (basically this is the definition of a small room), hence the first reflections in small rooms must be thought of as a serious problem that causes coloration and image blurring. These reflections must be considered in the [loudspeaker] design and should be also be considered in the room as well.

"Reflections become less of a problem as coloration and image shift at lower frequencies. Below about 500 Hz. early reflections are not as much of an issue. The ear has a longer integration time at lower frequencies and it has a poorer ability to localize resulting in a lower sensitivity to early reflections. Image localization is strongly weighted towards the higher frequencies.

"A reflected signal that arrives at the opposite ear from the direct sound is less perceptible as coloration and image shift than if both signals arrive at the same ear. This is because of head shadowing above about 500 Hz and the fact that our ears can process signals between them. When the two signals arrive at the same ear, the signals are physically merged in space even before they enter the ear and no amount of auditory processing can separate them. When these signals arrive at different ears, the auditory processing system can diminish the adverse effects of these early reflections through cognitive processing between the ears...

"From an acoustics reproduction standpoint then, the loudspeaker system design must help to provide as much delay as possible in the early reflections and allow for speaker placement and orientation such that the earliest reflections occur at opposite ears rather than the same ear. This needs to be done above about 500 Hz. Below 500 Hz other factors, such as room characteristics and our hearing mechanism, may dictate an entirely different approach.

"An obvious question always comes up – “Why not just make all the reflections and modes go away? Doesn’t this solve many of these problems?” That approach is (unfortunately) used in a great many situations, but it is far less than ideal. Without real room reverberation the perception of the playback is dead, lifeless, in acoustics parlance it lacks spaciousness or ambiance – the feeling of being engulfed in an acoustically spatial environment. If a non-echoic space were desirable then an anechoic chamber would be the ideal listening room, but as anyone who has ever listened to speakers in this kind of space will tell you, it really isn’t a good listening environment. One is always aware that they are listening to speakers – the room adds nothing. It’s something like listening to headphones, which admittedly some people like.

"To achieve good spaciousness in a room requires a multiplicity of lateral reflections (vertical reflections don’t really contribute much) arriving from many directions, i.e. a
diffuse sound field." (Link to Earl's paper: http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/Philosophy.pdf)

Now back to Griesinger:

"Envelopment is perceived when the ear and brain can detect TWO separate streams:
A foreground stream of direct sound.
And a background stream of reverberation.
Both streams must be present if sound is perceived as enveloping."

"Presence depends in the ability of the ear and brain to detect the direct sound as separate from the reflections."

So here is my interpretation and distillation of the desired sequence of events in the listening room:

1. A strong and clear first-arrival sound; followed by

2. A relatively reflection-free time interval of at least ballpark 10 milliseconds; more is better, and is quite practical in the size room this thread is about; followed by

3. A lot of spectrally-correct reflections arriving from many directions, and in particular from the sides.

The above-mentioned relatively reflection-free time interval is necessary for the ear/brain system to separate the first-arrival sound from the reflection stream, which is desirable both for "presence" (immediacy, clarity, and dynamic contrast) and "envelopment" (spaciousness, sense of immersion). In my experience those later-arriving reflections can also enhance timbre and richness, and they function as "carriers" for the ambience cues on the recording (which is another topic that I won't go into here).

All of this of course assumes the reflections are "spectrally correct", which is in part a loudspeaker radiation pattern issue, and in part a caution against the overuse of absorption in the playback room.

In my opinion.
 
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SomeDude

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Hello,

If you want loud, as in 125 dB continuous, in an somewhat attractive package I can recommend the Ascendo Live 15
It's a superb 12" Coaxial from PHL mated to a custom made 15 inch (sub)woofer.

Best of luck on your speaker quest.

Michael
 

sigbergaudio

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Anechoic is a technical definition, and I have never found it necessary to go that far ... reflections some multiple tens of dBs down usually do the trick. And I know these aren't made up concepts - 99% of people live with them, after all. But it's a weird approach to fidelity ... how would you feel about e.g. source components or amplifiers that added obligatory delayed and somewhat altered reverbs to their outputs? Would you say that's a form of additive distortion, or would you say no, that's all good - they add to the experience? My view as a record maker is that I provide a finished product, and I'm not a huge fan of people adding extra stuff. Would you be, as a speaker manufacturer? Suppose people bought your (excellent, BTW) Manta, and mounted them in big metal bowls to add extra reverbs?

Manta in big metal bowls is probably not a good idea. :) I generally find the Mantas to have more sense of envelopement and soundstage than regular speakers, and they create less room reflections, so this would support your case. I also generally enjoy well dampened room more, also with traditional speakers. What I however also find (with both the Manta and regular speakers) is that in most rooms I rather not dampen the sidewalls, I find the added reflections to sound better and with a wider soundstage.

Listening to music isn't a clinical exercise either, the purpose after all for most of us is for enjoyment, so it's up to everyone to figure out what works best based on the information available to them and the options they have to experiment with. :)
 

audiofooled

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All of this of course assumes the reflections are "spectrally correct", which is in part a loudspeaker radiation pattern issue

^^^
This.

As much as I do not wish to expand on the subject in this thread, I'd just like to share what Dr. Toole had to say about it:

 

Duke

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As I have learned from this thread from the experts and as was my own inkling, in a room like this narrow dispersion would be much preferred as the room would dominate far too much otherwise. As a result I want to go narrow dispersion in this room to get far more direct sound and minimize sidewall interaction. Also the room is a bit reverberant and I want to reduce that as well, so again the logic for narrow dispersion.

I meant the characteristics of the speakers we are looking for are similar. As to your “room”, that’s not a room, that’s a concert hall ;)

You might both find these YouTube videos useful:

Earl Geddes on in-room reflections, at least for the first eleven minutes or so, though imo the whole thing is highly educational: Earl Geddes on Software Assisted Audio System Design - YouTube (From the tail end of the video: "You want a minimum of 10 milliseconds of reflection-free and then you want as MUCH energy as possible.")

David Griesinger on reflections in concert halls, imo the principles are relevant to home audio, you might want to stick around for his response to the question about Apparent Source Width at the end: The effects of early reflections on proximity, localization, and loudness - YouTube .
 
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Battlebeast

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  • 4-way design
  • Single 18″ subwoofer capsule
  • 12 6.5″ mid frequency transducers
  • 12 1″ high frequency transducers
  • 1 compression bullet super tweeter
  • H 71″ x W 23″ x D 26″ 300lbs
  • Sensitivity 104dB 1W @ 1m
  • 140dB maximum output each
  • 4 Ohm Impedance
  • Frequency response 20Hz – 30kHz
  • Power handling – 2500 Watts
  • Manufactured in the USA
 

nagster

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Another speaker that might be high output and Hi-Fi for home use.

Magico Ultimate

Kinoshita / Reyaudio Warp-15
 

Bjorn

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This is not obvious to me. Could you elaborate?
All speaker cabinets that have edges and are not spherical will have some type of diffraction issues. While the Revel cabinet has some done something to minimize it, from a point of perfection it's still a drawback. You need much more roundover to deal with it over a wider frequency area. Diffraction also effects the beamwidth. But it certainly not a major point here.
 
OP
A

aliqaz

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Wide (little JBL) vs Narrow (MartinLogan electrostats) dispersion in my much smaller room...

I attribute the "hash" in the unsmoothed response to reflections.

View attachment 283155

It shows in the impulse response, too. Spikes are reflections.

View attachment 283156


I find the panels to be superior for critical listening at the sweet spot.


The current "big boy":


View attachment 283158
Those measurements don't look too bad. I was always under the impression that electrostatic speakers don't measure very well even though they have a good horizontal dispersion. Are there any spins available?
 
OP
A

aliqaz

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Tried it and my room is 1/3 or less than OP's and with lower ceilings and no ,it won't do it.
A big room needs plenty midbass (100-300Hz),that's what makes big sound and it won't come from small mains and subs.
It needs BIG 3-4 ways to fill and maybe subs to deal with modes.
(that's only by experience of course).
This is disappointing, as I'm getting a capable speaker past 80 hearse or so and then filling the rest with multiple subs was my last resort plan.
 
OP
A

aliqaz

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Been my take all along. I still think a Meyer X-40 rig makes for a great first try.
A rental is bound to be available in a cosmopolitan city like Vancouver.
I'd go with whatever sub(s) the rental company suggested, or perhaps even a different rig if they could inspire confidence in their recommendation(s)
Thank you for the suggestion. I will look into this
 
OP
A

aliqaz

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  • 4-way design
  • Single 18″ subwoofer capsule
  • 12 6.5″ mid frequency transducers
  • 12 1″ high frequency transducers
  • 1 compression bullet super tweeter
  • H 71″ x W 23″ x D 26″ 300lbs
  • Sensitivity 104dB 1W @ 1m
  • 140dB maximum output each
  • 4 Ohm Impedance
  • Frequency response 20Hz – 30kHz
  • Power handling – 2500 Watts
  • Manufactured in the USA
Looks pretty dramatic. Any data?
 

sarumbear

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All speaker cabinets that have edges and are not spherical will have some type of diffraction issues. While the Revel cabinet has some done something to minimize it, from a point of perfection it's still a drawback. You need much more roundover to deal with it over a wider frequency area. Diffraction also affects the beamwidth. But it certainly not a major point here.
Don’t you think Salon2 enclosure resembles shape ‘l’?

IMG_3984.jpeg

Olsen circa 1950's
 
OP
A

aliqaz

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Ideas about reflections have been bouncing around for the past few pages. Some of these ideas have been absorbed, some diffused, and some reflected specularly...

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

At the risk of further degrading the signal-to-noise ratio, here are some thoughts on the subject:

Imo the floor-bounce dip is most audible when it is the only significant early reflection. In most rooms, other early reflections arrive with enough intensity and with their dips at different frequencies such that they subjectively fill in the floor bounce dip. That being said, ime designs which mitigate or avoid the floor-bounce dip tend to sound more natural in the midbass (cello) region.

If anyone is up for a sighted listening test with all biases fully in play, try this: Indoors, preferably on a hard floor, have someone stand a few feet away and talk to you. Focus on the timbre of their voice. Then go outside and stand on a sidewalk out in the open. Have them talk to you again from the same distance, again focusing on the timbre of their voice. The floor-bounce dip was present in both situations, but other reflections were also present inside the room. Was there a difference in the timbre of their voice? If so, that difference was caused by the presence of reflections other than the floor bounce. Did those other reflections "warm up" the timbre of their voice? If so, then arguably those other reflections were filling in the floor-bounce dip.

Note that the floor bounce does not significantly affect imaging, as its arrival time is the same for both ears, or close enough. In contrast early sidewall reflections effect imaging, broadening the "apparent source width" in the direction of the sidewalls (and thereby widening the soundstage), but arguably degrading image precision and image depth. I am not an advocate of strong early sidewall reflections, but concede that this is a matter of personal preference.

Here are a few imo relevant quotes about reflections. First from psychoacoustics researcher David Griesinger ("GREE-zin-GURR"), whose work is mostly focused on large venues but the underling psychoacoustic principles are still applicable to home audio, we get the idea that early reflections have downsides:

"The earlier a reflection arrives the more it contributes to masking the direct sound."

"When presence is lacking the earliest reflections are the most responsible."

"Transients are not corrupted by reflections if the room is large enough [i.e. if the early-reflection-free time interval is long enough] - and 10 milliseconds of reflections free time is enough." [Sound travels about 13.5 inches per millisecond, so 10 milliseconds corresponds to the time it takes for sound to travel about 11 feet.]

Psychoacoustics researcher Earl Geddes, with the focus specifically on home audio:

"At mid and high frequencies, there are several factors that must be considered in the loudspeaker design that will present some formidable problems. At these frequencies
there are enough modes that the sound field and wave motion basically acts like a ray or beam of sound moving from the source and reflecting off of walls etc. – this is called the geometric or ray acoustics region. It is well know that reflections can be good and bad and it is critical that a loudspeaker designer understand the difference. One must look to psychoacoustics to determine what is required of the loudspeaker. There are a couple of characteristics of the ear that need to be understood in order to understand what is important in small room acoustics at mid to high frequencies. These are mostly related to how the human ear perceives reflections and diffraction. The perception of reflections and diffraction is a highly complex topic, but there are a few principles that are most important here:

"The earlier and the greater in level the first room reflections are, the worse they are. This aspect of sound perception is controversial. Some believe that all reflections are good because they increase the listeners' feeling of space – they increase the spaciousness of the sound. While it is certainly true that all reflections add to spaciousness, the very early ones (< 10 ms.) do so at the sake of imaging and coloration. There is no contention that reflections > 20 ms are positive and perceived as early reverberation and acoustic spaciousness within the space. In small rooms, the first reflections from an arbitrary source, mainly omni-directional, will never occur later than 10-20 ms (basically this is the definition of a small room), hence the first reflections in small rooms must be thought of as a serious problem that causes coloration and image blurring. These reflections must be considered in the [loudspeaker] design and should be also be considered in the room as well.

"Reflections become less of a problem as coloration and image shift at lower frequencies. Below about 500 Hz. early reflections are not as much of an issue. The ear has a longer integration time at lower frequencies and it has a poorer ability to localize resulting in a lower sensitivity to early reflections. Image localization is strongly weighted towards the higher frequencies.

"A reflected signal that arrives at the opposite ear from the direct sound is less perceptible as coloration and image shift than if both signals arrive at the same ear. This is because of head shadowing above about 500 Hz and the fact that our ears can process signals between them. When the two signals arrive at the same ear, the signals are physically merged in space even before they enter the ear and no amount of auditory processing can separate them. When these signals arrive at different ears, the auditory processing system can diminish the adverse effects of these early reflections through cognitive processing between the ears...

"From an acoustics reproduction standpoint then, the loudspeaker system design must help to provide as much delay as possible in the early reflections and allow for speaker placement and orientation such that the earliest reflections occur at opposite ears rather than the same ear. This needs to be done above about 500 Hz. Below 500 Hz other factors, such as room characteristics and our hearing mechanism, may dictate an entirely different approach.

"An obvious question always comes up – “Why not just make all the reflections and modes go away? Doesn’t this solve many of these problems?” That approach is (unfortunately) used in a great many situations, but it is far less than ideal. Without real room reverberation the perception of the playback is dead, lifeless, in acoustics parlance it lacks spaciousness or ambiance – the feeling of being engulfed in an acoustically spatial environment. If a non-echoic space were desirable then an anechoic chamber would be the ideal listening room, but as anyone who has ever listened to speakers in this kind of space will tell you, it really isn’t a good listening environment. One is always aware that they are listening to speakers – the room adds nothing. It’s something like listening to headphones, which admittedly some people like.

"To achieve good spaciousness in a room requires a multiplicity of lateral reflections (vertical reflections don’t really contribute much) arriving from many directions, i.e. a
diffuse sound field." (Link to Earl's paper: http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/Philosophy.pdf)

Now back to Griesinger:

"Envelopment is perceived when the ear and brain can detect TWO separate streams:
A foreground stream of direct sound.
And a background stream of reverberation.
Both streams must be present if sound is perceived as enveloping."

"Presence depends in the ability of the ear and brain to detect the direct sound as separate from the reflections."

So here is my interpretation and distillation of the desired sequence of events in the listening room:

1. A strong and clear first-arrival sound; followed by

2. A relatively reflection-free time interval of at least ballpark 10 milliseconds; more is better, and is quite practical in the size room this thread is about; followed by

3. A lot of spectrally-correct reflections arriving from many directions, and in particular from the sides.

The above-mentioned relatively reflection-free time interval is necessary for the ear/brain system to separate the first-arrival sound from the reflection stream, which is desirable both for "presence" (immediacy, clarity, and dynamic contrast) and "envelopment" (spaciousness, sense of immersion). In my experience those later-arriving reflections can also enhance timbre and richness, and they function as "carriers" for the ambience cues on the recording (which is another topic that I won't go into here).

All of this of course assumes the reflections are "spectrally correct", which is in part a loudspeaker radiation pattern issue, and in part a caution against the overuse of absorption in the playback room.

In my opinion.
Thank you for this incredible post and distilling acoustic research on with your experience as a designer. If what you say is correct then my rebel f208s are a pretty ideal speaker for my space (apart from the output). This is because they have a wide radiation pattern, thereby providing me with all the spacious reflections I need. However because of the distance from the side walls as well as the fact that I sent far away. There should be more than a 10 millisecond delay in between the direct arriving sound and the reflections. There by getting the best of both worlds.

My initial impulse was to get speakers that minimize reflections altogether with maximal direct sound and narrow activity. The M2, jubilee, bjorns design, all accomplish that. But maybe I should not be afraid of wide directivity design in my room because of the size and the mitigation of early arriving reflections.
 

robwpdx

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I simply feel that at high volume levels, at least in my room and where I am sitting, they tend to fall apart in terms of dynamics. They are being given close to 600 watts at 4 ohms, so plenty of power.
I am late to this thread. When you say "fall apart in terms of dynamics" how would you describe that?

That size room and slightly larger would be found in recording studios specializing in orchestral and film orchestra recording. Your listening level is not extreme and those studios would be capable of playback at that level. If you are in any big recording studio city there are probably studios to visit in person. If you are a traveler, Abbey Road is doing Mix With the Masters seminars. They have some studios that size, many in London, LA, etc. A long time ago, 1970s, we used JBL 4350 in that size room in a farfield listening environment. The farfield monitor market is in decline today.
 
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aliqaz

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I am late to this thread. When you say "fall apart in terms of dynamics" how would you describe that?

That size room and slightly larger would be found in recording studios specializing in orchestral and film orchestra recording. Your listening level is not extreme and those studios would be capable of playback at that level. If you are in any big recording studio city there are probably studios to visit in person. If you are a traveler, Abbey Road is doing Mix With the Masters seminars. They have some studios that size, many in London, LA, etc.
What I mean is that at volume levels approaching 90 DB at my listing position at 20 ft there is a harshness to the sound that is not present at lower volumes. The transient peaks are all surpressed, Ie they do not stand out all that much from the average. This is with a fairly powerful amplifier as well.
I can also tell that the woofers are not happy at such volumes if there is some low frequency data in the song. In contrast, my JBL 4349s produce clean and uncolored sound at 90 DB and above at my listening position at 10 ft with startling transient peaks as high as 110 and 115 DB.
Mind you, the rebel f208 at the 20 foot listening position are excellent at the 75 DB listening range waiting on the aforementioned issues.
 
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aliqaz

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Why don’t you upgrade to a top of the range Revel if you like them? The SPL capacity between F208S and Salon2 is pretty large.
Thank you so much for your response. The salon 2s would definitely fit the bill in terms of low frequency extension. Giving them enough power should also not be an issue. However they are low sensitivity, and it is my understanding that low sensitivity designs have issues being highly dynamic. Amir, who owns a set, as often mentioned that they can't match the dynamics of larger horns. I also have not seen any compression or distortion data for them, so I don't know how drivers behave at high spls
 
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