The quest for my hyper speaker - Very Large room dilemma

[Duke]

I didn't realize they had a narrow dispersion option... good to know, I'll check this out.

The 45 degree version has better in-pattern efficiency (higher SPL) and better dynamics, though it's not really putting out more sound. Imagine adjusting the nozzle on a water hose from wide pattern to narrow pattern: The same amount of water comes out, but the on-axis pressure is much higher.

Still, regarding this application where the OP is looking for dynamic slam and SPL output, the Sound Labs are not the right choice.

Agreed, and just for the record, I never recommended SoundLabs for this application.

If I were designing speakers for this room, I'd use large midwoofers with a 60-degree-horizontal pattern horn in an "MHM" configuration. The midwoofers would have sufficient thermal and mechanical power handling to allow fairly aggressive EQ of the low end if needed. And I'd provide a way to fine-tune the spectral balance of the reflection field independent of the direct sound, because the spectral balance of the reflection field will be perceptually dominant throughout most of that large room.

 

[CDMC]

By the way, I wish I could define better what I mean by high dynamics. But I believe the term hasn't actually been rigorously defined in the literature either. The best that I can come up with with my readings here in elsewhere is a speaker with a combination of high sensitivity and very low distortion at high spl's. These are the measurements I look to and when I am selecting for high dynamics. Generally a combination of this is primarily found in horn based designs such as the bigger jbls.

Combining this with my desire for something that is truly full range with lots of output without subwoofers, completely neutral tonality, narrow and controlled disperson and good industrial design and we can see that we have a tall order on our hands. Hence my turning to the community to help me find something.

SPL capability is highly correlated with driver size and in turn, enclosure size. To get speakers that can output high SPL cleanly, requires large drivers and enclosures, and your room is sized more like a small club than a domestic space. In terms of bass, you have to pick your compromise, you can get high levels of bass down to about 50hz with something like the Everest, but if you want to start plumbing the low 20hz and below range at high levels, you are going to need multiple large subwoofers.

P.S., saw the photo you posted of the room, I am not sure what I like better, the room, or the view out the wall of windows.

 

[EAXAE]

Genelec 1236A

Aren't they gorgeous?

 

[Mr. Widget]

Ideally, I would like to go without non manufacturer integrated subwoofers as I have subs on every other system I own, and I'd like to keep this stereo setup as clean as possible, for something different.

As clean as possible conceptually or aesthetically? As I am sure you are well aware, multiple separate subs will almost always give you the best LF and VLF performance. If this is an aesthetic concern, you could consider the JL Audio in-walls. I have deployed multiples of these in large rooms with extremely great success.

If you want to keep the design simpler, I get that... but you do limit your choices.

 

[hmt]

I have been edging towards that myself. My foremost thinking is that it has incredibly low distortion and reasonably high sensitivity. Feed it a lot of power and it could result in a pretty dynamic system. However they would likely require subwoofers.

Yep, you do need subwoofers. Concerning midrange and highs the listening distance determines mostly how powerful your speakers have to be. For the bass region it is the size of you room even if you sit close to your speakers. Multiple Subwoofers are also helpful to address the probably difficult acoustics wrt bass of your open space. You probably have to use like 4 of them strategically spread in your space. Good thing is that there are also small but powerful closed subs available that are easy to integrate.

 

[Keith_W]

If you want dynamics, there is only one way to go ... horns.

I agree with the recommendations for subwoofers. If you don't like the look of subwoofers, there are several options - you could get one custom built to look like furniture, or you could integrate them into the floor, walls, or ceiling, or you could install a bass shaker in your sofa or listening chair.

 

[Mr. Widget]

If you want dynamics, there is only one way to go ... horns.

For the ultimate in dynamics, I agree.
Some MTM designs offer pretty good dynamics, but a good horn system will always edge them out in ultimate dynamics and for higher peak SPLs with low distortion its either a pretty tall line array/line source or a horn system.

.... or you could install a bass shaker in your sofa or listening chair.

Kidding... right?

 

[Keith_W]

Kidding... right?

Not kidding They are surprisingly effective. I am not aware of any subwoofer capable of producing 5Hz, and bass shakers are effective up to 200Hz. I wouldn't use it that high though. I listened (or rather, sat on) a setup with a bass shaker which was tuned for very low amplitude and crossed over at 60Hz and it was utterly convincing. I didn't know it was a bass shaker until the owner told me. I commented that his system produced an incredible amount of bass given he had no subwoofer ... prompting the confession.

As he told me, there are limitations. If you listen to your mains at higher SPL, bass becomes more tactile - you feel it in your skin, vibrating the air in your lungs, etc. And not just in your butt. And of course, if you stand up, the effect is lost. But if you listen at lower SPL's (as I typically do) then bass shakers work well if they are subtly tuned. I am actually considering a bass shaker.

 

[aliqaz]

Not kidding They are surprisingly effective. I am not aware of any subwoofer capable of producing 5Hz, and bass shakers are effective up to 200Hz. I wouldn't use it that high though. I listened (or rather, sat on) a setup with a bass shaker which was tuned for very low amplitude and crossed over at 60Hz and it was utterly convincing. I didn't know it was a bass shaker until the owner told me. I commented that his system produced an incredible amount of bass given he had no subwoofer ... prompting the confession.

As he told me, there are limitations. If you listen to your mains at higher SPL, bass becomes more tactile - you feel it in your skin, vibrating the air in your lungs, etc. And not just in your butt. And of course, if you stand up, the effect is lost. But if you listen at lower SPL's (as I typically do) then bass shakers work well if they are subtly tuned. I am actually considering a bass shaker.

I have multiple butt shakers incorporated into my theater room setup. I only really turned them on during big budget movies, I love them and everyone else is typically blown away. Super cheap to buy off Amazon, and can easily be powered by a chip amp.

 

[Keith_W]

Yeah, I think a lot of people associate bass shakers with gamers or HT and have not thought about using one in an audiophile 2ch setup. Even mentioning it here (where people are more open minded) might be heresy, let alone some subjectivist forums where you would be laughed out of the room.

 

[Mr. Widget]

In a music system, sub sonic rumbling is going to mostly amplify the concert halls HVAC system and not capture the audible VLF content... but if you are into that I guess, why not.

 

[MarcT]

Just for grins, you might go check out the new Martin Logan Motion XT F200's. You can find them or the smaller F100 at Best Buy Magnolia stores, as well as some independent shops. The largest Magnolia locations are more likely to have the F200's. I've now heard them at four different audio stores, and you cannot believe the music these things can produce. The F200's have three 8-inch woofers. I'm not saying they will match the output of some of these mega dollar options being suggested, but they will play plenty loud, and under control. And you'll only be out $5,500! The black gloss looks excellent and should have a good domestic factor.

At one of the stores I visited, they played a demo of Trombone Shorty's Neph. This track has Shorty playing his trombone, very loudly, on the right channel and the power and clarity of his trombone was about as good as I've heard from an audio system. The trumpets, percussion, and bass were all excellent. The Gen2 Folded Motion® XT Tweeter has the ability to play VERY loud, yet without harshness.

I heard the F100's at an independent store, being driven by the 150 watt per channel Musical Fedelity m5si integrated amp. Again, the sound was huge and beautiful at the same time.

 

[aliqaz]

Home - Avantgarde Acoustic

Über 30 Jahre sind Matthias Ruff und Holger Fromme gemeinsam bestreben ihren Traum: "Den besten Lautsprechern der Welt zu verwirklichen"

avantgarde-acoustic.de

Has it already been named? They fit well into a stylish interior. I have good experience with it. In a group of musicians and composers I'm a member of, we used speakers from them as a hi-fi PA. Once also in a big church. There are so many possibilities, actually no problem if you have the space and the money.

Avant-garde acoustic are obviously the main choice for stylish horns and of course they would have dynamics in spades. However the most important thing, the frequency response, both on and off axis is suspect

 

[Da cynics]

What happens when you listen to a normal speaker up close in a large room?

 

[Mart68]

Avant-garde acoustic are obviously the main choice for stylish horns and of course they would have dynamics in spades. However the most important thing, the frequency response, both on and off axis is suspect

I thought they were one of the worst loudspeaker systems I have ever heard.

 

[pierre]

other options:

Kling Freitag Spectra https://www.kling-freitag.de/prorental/spectrainstall/#head
I would put it on top of a sub of the same size. Look is what it is.

Alcons Audio: they have excellent columns with assorted thin woofers, they would be easy to put on the wall, the subs are needed but could be on the floor

Genelec W371+top ; I have them, SPL will not be an issue. The sub is large and ugly. The main monitors from Genelec could also work but you need to build the wall around them. Could be a nice visual option in your case.

Another option is to fly the speaker and put 2 line arrays with a sub suspended: Visually you like it or not but in a big room like yours that's an option.

Hope that helps.

 

[audiofooled]

Anyone mentioned B&M?

Backes & Müller GmbH | Saarbrücken | Technologien

Backes&Müller Innovationen für den guten Ton - Höchste Qualität vom Erfinder der Aktivlautsprecher. Jetzt beraten lassen!

0-backesmller--zhb-de.translate.goog

Expensive I suppose but all active with radiation pattern control, plenty of amplification and low frequency extension. They could use a better English translation though.

 

[Purité Audio]

Avant-garde acoustic are obviously the main choice for stylish horns and of course they would have dynamics in spades. However the most important thing, the frequency response, both on and off axis is suspect

Quite the only uncoloured horn I have heard is the Danley synergy, we used to sell a hugely expensive German manufacturer he used nice drivers TAD and in isolation they sounded ok but when we had the first of Gens ‘digital’ series 8260 with two admittedly ugly subs, GLM software they just reproduced music as it should be, then when I started to measure the horns well they had to go.
Keith

 

[Bjorn]

I am not sure about the frequency response of these. I'll try to find it. Also I think I might need subwoofers. Also, they are large boxy fridge like speakers, and would command a lot of the visual real estate even in my room, which, although not a deal-breaker is far from ideal. Ditto for the Everest except of course the more likely ideal frequency response and lower bass.

The Everests are not really constant directivity horns. Some may arrest me for this, but IMO they are designed more for looks than absolutely best sound quality. Not saying the can't sound good, but they have some obvious compromises. One is the mentioned directivity. The Jubilees have a top horn with much more uniform directivity and therefore will give a more even frequency response in the range of that horn when placed in the actual room combined with the fact that it's active, but the weaknesess are the following:

- They loose vertical directivity quite high in frequency
- They use a 2" exit which exhibits higher distortion and a bit more narrowing in the highs
- The bass bin doesn't offer good directivity control and is somewhat uneven on-axis in parts of the region. The latter is something Klipsch may avoid with a very low crossover though, but that again leads to issues in relation to the vertical directivity because the top horn doens't maintain it low enough.

Uniform directivity is essential and should ideally be that down to the Schroeder frequency. This leads to a much less coloration from surfaces and more a correct tonality. This is actually more important that a super even frequency response on-axis anechoic. Especially in rooms with no or little acoustic treatment. Most speakers recommmended here don't fit that bill and will not measure that well placed in a normal room. That being said, in this big room you will avoid many acoustic problems. At the same time, some other will arise but they are easier to deal with.

With a horn speaker and directivity control, we don't get away from large dimensions.

 

[Purité Audio]

The Everests and the K2s always underwhelmed in Munich, but that is show conditions, walls made of cardboard etc etc, pretty speakers though.
Keith