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The "other" German Speaker Manufacturers (Canton, Magnat, Heco, Quadral, ...) - Where do they stand?

quadral aurum vulkan 8r final edition; bad off axis unfortunately
 

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I own the Canton 9k reference speakers going on three years. Top quality parts and beautifully finished in piano black. The 9Ks sound great but are not a warm sounding speaker at all, yet they are not bright but they are very detailed. They do go deep for a stand mounted speaker 40 hz ,my sub is crossed over at 40 hz which the Cantons reach quite well. the retail was close to $4000 and I purchased them for well under two grand. They can run with any speaker made any place at their price point. I was concerned about the distortion figures but hells bells I can't hear it perhaps it is because I'm old. Anyway for the discounted price woo oh and MC Hammer said this about the 9k Cantons.
"if you can't groove to this, then you probably are dead So, wave your hands in the air Bust a few moves Run your fingers through your hair This is it, for a winner Dance to this and you're gonna get thinner Now move, slide your rump Just for a minute, let's all do the bump (Bump, bump, bump) Yeah You can't touch this..."
 
I own the Canton 9k reference speakers going on three years. Top quality parts and beautifully finished in piano black. The 9Ks sound great but are not a warm sounding speaker at all, yet they are not bright but they are very detailed. They do go deep for a stand mounted speaker 40 hz ,my sub is crossed over at 40 hz which the Cantons reach quite well. the retail was close to $4000 and I purchased them for well under two grand. They can run with any speaker made any place at their price point. I was concerned about the distortion figures but hells bells I can't hear it perhaps it is because I'm old. Anyway for the discounted price woo oh and MC Hammer said this about the 9k Cantons.
"if you can't groove to this, then you probably are dead So, wave your hands in the air Bust a few moves Run your fingers through your hair This is it, for a winner Dance to this and you're gonna get thinner Now move, slide your rump Just for a minute, let's all do the bump (Bump, bump, bump) Yeah You can't touch this..."
I own the Canton 9k reference speakers going on three years. Top quality parts and beautifully finished in piano black. The 9Ks sound great but are not a warm sounding speaker at all, yet they are not bright but they are very detailed. They do go deep for a stand mounted speaker 40 hz ,my sub is crossed over at 40 hz which the Cantons reach quite well. the retail was close to $4000 and I purchased them for well under two grand. They can run with any speaker made any place at their price point. I was concerned about the distortion figures but hells bells I can't hear it perhaps it is because I'm old. Anyway for the discounted price woo oh and MC Hammer said this about the 9k Cantons.
"if you can't groove to this, then you probably are dead So, wave your hands in the air Bust a few moves Run your fingers through your hair This is it, for a winner Dance to this and you're gonna get thinner Now move, slide your rump Just for a minute, let's all do the bump (Bump, bump, bump) Yeah You can't touch this..."
I think with distortion, you need to push it louder or have music with higher dbs in the areas prone to higher distortion to hear it. But since this distortion is harmonic, it will not sound like a “disturbing” sound as it smoothly works with the actual sound to produce an artificial sound with he harmonics. Unless we compare it with a speaker with no such distortion we will not understand what is different here. But at normal listening volumes, it’s not going to hear it. It’s a speaker I would love to own to look at it even. Gorgeous imo.
 
I own the Canton 9k reference speakers going on three years. Top quality parts and beautifully finished in piano black. The 9Ks sound great but are not a warm sounding speaker at all, yet they are not bright but they are very detailed. They do go deep for a stand mounted speaker 40 hz ,my sub is crossed over at 40 hz which the Cantons reach quite well. the retail was close to $4000 and I purchased them for well under two grand. They can run with any speaker made any place at their price point. I was concerned about the distortion figures but hells bells I can't hear it perhaps it is because I'm old. Anyway for the discounted price woo oh and MC Hammer said this about the 9k Cantons.
"if you can't groove to this, then you probably are dead So, wave your hands in the air Bust a few moves Run your fingers through your hair This is it, for a winner Dance to this and you're gonna get thinner Now move, slide your rump Just for a minute, let's all do the bump (Bump, bump, bump) Yeah You can't touch this..."
By the way I saw another user here called Scottso, strangely living in east coast who paired his 9ks with a technics and he seemed to be happy with his speakers. Another guy called bozon also has very much positive things tp day about his 7k. Seems like in real world canton speakers are very good and from many parts of the internet I think there is a a lobby to somehow devalue this brand somehow by exaggerating their minor flaws which every company would have.
 
Another measurement : T+A Criterion S2000CTL: This looks good on paper. Good directivity+Low distortion. Measurements are from Audio Magazine.
1672779100089.png
 
Wait, weight only 16kg? Made out of cardboard?
 
I feel like one of the „other german speaker manufacturers“ so far has been missing in this thread: Phonar from the very north of germany.

Phonar is a much smaller manufacturer (I think I have read something like 15 employees) and thus does not produce the drivers themselves, but use/have used parts from Seas, Peerless, Scan Speak etc.

I consider their Veritas range to be their most interesting series. They use drivers from the Peerless HDS Series and a Scan Speak soft dome tweeter and seem to measure pretty well. Good, easy to use drivers, rounded edges around the tweeter, tilted back cabinets, nice look. Seems like "no nonsense" speakers at prices that are not completely over the top.

Phonar Veritas M4 next (MSRP: 1.000€)
phonar m4 next .jpgphonar m4 next audio.jpg

Phonar Veritas P6 next (MSRP 2.600€)
phonar p6 next.jpgp6 next stereoplay.jpg

Phonar Veritas P10 next (MSRP 7.000€)
phonar p10 next.jpgphonar p10 next stereo.jpg
 
I feel like one of the „other german speaker manufacturers“ so far has been missing in this thread: Phonar from the very north of germany.

Phonar is a much smaller manufacturer (I think I have read something like 15 employees) and thus does not produce the drivers themselves, but use/have used parts from Seas, Peerless, Scan Speak etc.

I consider their Veritas range to be their most interesting series. They use drivers from the Peerless HDS Series and a Scan Speak soft dome tweeter and seem to measure pretty well. Good, easy to use drivers, rounded edges around the tweeter, tilted back cabinets, nice look. Seems like "no nonsense" speakers at prices that are not completely over the top.

Phonar Veritas M4 next (MSRP: 1.000€)
View attachment 259907View attachment 259908

Phonar Veritas P6 next (MSRP 2.600€)
View attachment 259909View attachment 259910

Phonar Veritas P10 next (MSRP 7.000€)
View attachment 259912View attachment 259913
Good thing about using off the shelf drivers is those things are made for a life time. Even after 30 years, many vifa/seas/scanspeak drivers are in production. Also, parts quality on these brands are quite good under the hood. Another good measuring brand is Nubert. There was ASW but now they aren’t in business If m not wrong.
 
DD3CA3E1-E6FE-4845-B6B3-8055115F8438.jpeg

Nubert Nuvero110. This is a perfect speaker imo.
Low distortion, flat on axis, no weird off axis as per other reviews. Think they know their game. Can stack up against Revel if m not wrong.
 
While the Nuveros are of course not bad the Audio/Stereoplay measurements have too few angles and too much smoothing compared to a CEA2034 to judge if it is on a Revel level which I personally doubt.
 
I can imagine that on the Klippel and through the lense of the almighty preference score the NuVero110 would be handicapped by it´s MTM layout, because despite the BMR midranges being small and the crossover frequency being rather low at 2khz the MTM layout might lead to a certain step in the directivity index. I suspect that the NuVero60 could be the Nubert model that performs best on the Klippel with regards to tonality. With that being said: The NuVeros could possibly outperform the Revels (minus maybe the big Salon) on low frequency extension. The Nubert speakers I listened to or owned always had a very impressive bass extension for their size. I guess this is one of the reasons for the rather modest efficiency of their speakers.

I think Amir teased something about some Nuberts being send in, so we can look forward to the first Nubert Klippel scans. :)
 
I can imagine that on the Klippel and through the lense of the almighty preference score the NuVero110 would be handicapped by it´s MTM layout, because despite the BMR midranges being small and the crossover frequency being rather low at 2khz the MTM layout might lead to a certain step in the directivity index. I suspect that the NuVero60 could be the Nubert model that performs best on the Klippel with regards to tonality. With that being said: The NuVeros could possibly outperform the Revels (minus maybe the big Salon) on low frequency extension. The Nubert speakers I listened to or owned always had a very impressive bass extension for their size. I guess this is one of the reasons for the rather modest efficiency of their speakers.

I think Amir teased something about some Nuberts being send in, so we can look forward to the first Nubert Klippel scans. :)
Comparing the audio/stereoplays graphs of kefs and revels with other websites, they aren’t overly wrong from Klippel. The Klippel’s fine peaks and valleys are also Computational, so you cannot say that the ultimate. All measurement systems should be taken with a pinch of salt.
 
I can imagine that on the Klippel and through the lense of the almighty preference score the NuVero110 would be handicapped by it´s MTM layout, because despite the BMR midranges being small and the crossover frequency being rather low at 2khz the MTM layout might lead to a certain step in the directivity index. I suspect that the NuVero60 could be the Nubert model that performs best on the Klippel with regards to tonality. With that being said: The NuVeros could possibly outperform the Revels (minus maybe the big Salon) on low frequency extension. The Nubert speakers I listened to or owned always had a very impressive bass extension for their size. I guess this is one of the reasons for the rather modest efficiency of their speakers.

I think Amir teased something about some Nuberts being send in, so we can look forward to the first Nubert Klippel scans. :)
MTM Designs have a typical directivity issue ? I had a ALR number 3 in the past which had a d’Appolito. Despite its good tonality in a damped room, once I moved to a slightly reflective room, there was a bump in the upper midrange which made it really “shouty”. I had no problems with the older model Nummer 3 which had a waveguided tweeter.
 
MTM Designs have a typical directivity issue ? I had a ALR number 3 in the past which had a d’Appolito. Despite its good tonality in a damped room, once I moved to a slightly reflective room, there was a bump in the upper midrange which made it really “shouty”. I had no problems with the older model Nummer 3 which had a waveguided tweeter.


At the crossover frequency you have three drivers playing. That narrows the vertical dispersion in that area. Often manufacturers state that the point of their MTM configuration is to limit reflections from floor and ceiling, but here at ASR where the Harman preference score that aims for a steady rise in directivity is king this tends to be judged as a flaw. So depending on who you ask it´s either a bug or a feature ^^

BTW in another thread about the new (non MTM 2 ways) Epos speakers Karl Heinz Fink (designer of the ALR brand you mentioned) stated that:
„And the small valley @2-3kHz is also there on purpose. It would be easy to make it flat, but I don't want to have bleeding ears. In an ideal world, everything could be flat, but with real-world music, the flat upper-mid band is biting.“
So it really depends on who you ask.

The review of the Aperion 5 illustrates how common MTM designs (5.25 woofers, 2.3khz crossover frequency) perform on the Klippel:

To limit lobing (comb filtering) of the three drivers playing the same frequency Joe D´Appolito suggested choosing drivers and crossover frequency in a way, that the centers of both midbass drivers are as close to each other as 2/3 of the wavelength of the crossover frequency. Problem is that the wavelength at 2khz (as an example for a typical crossover frequency) is just 17cm. The only tweeters I could think of that could potentially be used in a „real“ D´Appolito approved MTM are the Wavecor TW030 tweeters, that can be crossed over as low as 1khz.

I would expect the NuVero110 to perform better than the Aperion5 in that regard, because it uses much smaller midrange drivers that are placed closer to each other and a lower crossover point, but I expect a small dip in the presence region to show up in the estimated in room response and likely that would place them below Revels in the eyes of many ASR members.
 
While the Nuveros are of course not bad the Audio/Stereoplay measurements have too few angles and too much smoothing compared to a CEA2034 to judge if it is on a Revel level which I personally doubt.
The only problem with revel in Germany is their availability. There is only one dealer if I am not wrong! But that leaves no window for competitive pricing. Most other speakers after some negotiations can be had atleast at 75% of their marked price! Also service from most German companies are excellent. I dont know how Revel reacts in case of a fault.
 
The only problem with revel in Germany is their availability. There is only one dealer if I am not wrong! But that leaves no window for competitive pricing.
Actually there are no dealers at all but only direct sales so their argument is that through the direct sales their prices are from the start competitive without needing for discounts and the dealer profit. There are also other companies like that, like Buchard, Ascent Acoustics etc.

I dont know how Revel reacts in case of a fault.
From what I have read unfortunately it seems Harman doesn't have great support for their better loudspeakers in Europe, it seems they are mainly focused on the BT offerings.
 
Actually there are no dealers at all but only direct sales so their argument is that through the direct sales their prices are from the start competitive without needing for discounts and the dealer profit. There are also other companies like that, like Buchard, Ascent Acoustics etc.


From what I have read unfortunately it seems Harman doesn't have great support for their better loudspeakers in Europe, it seems they are mainly focused on the BT offerings.
That’s unfortunately the problem, not sure about KEF. Fortunaly that French shop has all parts in stock for speakers upto ls50 Meta now! Hope ins year parts of r meta also may be listed. Another thing is about warranty duration, many German brands and even bowers and Wilkins gives 10 year warranty on their upper tier speakers. 10 years of peaceful listening is a very good thing.
 
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