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The "other" German Speaker Manufacturers (Canton, Magnat, Heco, Quadral, ...) - Where do they stand?

New Canton Reference Line!
Very nice looking.
Looking forward to the improvements
Canton-Reference-Serie-2023.jpg

Canton-Reference-1-01.jpg

Canton-Reference-04.jpg
 
It is good news: Canton is not using any more the white ceramic drivers.
Let us wait for some measurements.
 
It is good news: Canton is not using any more the white ceramic drivers.
Let us wait for some measurements.
might be a paint job plus some minor improvements. This is not their first black ceramic speaker line. These speakers already have the same drivers. https://www.canton.de/en/products/series/gs-editions/

Honestly there is not thing audibly wrong with the older k drivers despite the distortion on graph. You cannot hear anything better on a cleaner measuring midrange.

Edit: there is a new metal in the ceramic mix which gives it the new color. As per a German website, it has an improvement in terms of sound, probably objectively better distortion too.
 
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new cabin is interesting, also new ceramic tungsten drivers. Hopefully they will be the best in the class.
Hopefully they improved the mid-driver, the price increase is huge

the dual 174mm 5k is 8000 euros, with tax + shipping it will be around 10,000 USD+

Better distortion with the new mid range driver, and it will be a good new series to me
 
Hopefully they improved the mid-driver, the price increase is huge

the dual 174mm 5k is 8000 euros, with tax + shipping it will be around 10,000 USD+

Better distortion with the new mid range driver, and it will be a good new series to me
That wasn’t audible in the first place so I won’t bother that at all. May be it’s happier to see the numbers on paper. I don’t think that would change anything as the canton ventos even have similar distortion levels on paper. If this was an audible issue, German magazines would have complained this long back. I had enough listening of the old k series in my room. I never heard anything wrong with them in comparison to my current speakers.
 
That wasn’t audible in the first place so I won’t bother that at all. May be it’s happier to see the numbers on paper. I don’t think that would change anything as the canton ventos even have similar distortion levels on paper. If this was an audible issue, German magazines would have complained this long back. I had enough listening of the old k series in my room. I never heard anything wrong with them in comparison to my current speakers.
Well, thats fine in your case

I just don't want any mid-range driver who has a distortion in the worst place, 1-4khz~, since even things like a simple ls50 meta has better distortion that these big towers. I don't know what german megazines said about a brand of his own country, but there is places like hifi-news.com that talked about that. Also the main problem its because is 3rd harmonic distortion, we know the 2nd harmonic distortion is not that bad... like some jbl horn design, very low 3rd harmonic distortion but OK 2nd harmonic distortion, and thats fine.



For example, i wanted to know if the whaferdale elysian 4 has 2nd or 3rd harmonic distortion dominance, at this day i don't know.
1694126322325.png

Sadly stereoplay, don't tell you in the review nothing about the distortions, it's more up to you and your knoweldge.


As I said previously, I don't want a mid-range driver with that caracteristic, there is plenty of design who doesn't have that issue. For example, you can talk whatever you want about the mid-range ATC, but at least is a low Total HD mid-range.
1694126473618.png

ATC SCM50
 
Well, thats fine in your case

I just don't want any mid-range driver who has a distortion in the worst place, 1-4khz~, since even things like a simple ls50 meta has better distortion that these big towers. I don't know what german megazines said about a brand of his own country, but there is places like hifi-news.com that talked about that. Also the main problem its because is 3rd harmonic distortion, we know the 2nd harmonic distortion is not that bad... like some jbl horn design, very low 3rd harmonic distortion but OK 2nd harmonic distortion, and thats fine.



For example, i wanted to know if the whaferdale elysian 4 has 2nd or 3rd harmonic distortion dominance, at this day i don't know.
View attachment 310419
Sadly stereoplay, don't tell you in the review nothing about the distortions, it's more up to you and your knoweldge.


As I said previously, I don't want a mid-range driver with that caracteristic, there is plenty of design who doesn't have that issue. For example, you can talk whatever you want about the mid-range ATC, but at least is a low Total HD mid-range.
View attachment 310421
ATC SCM50
I had used it in my room and now I have a KEF reference 3. I donot hear anything better on the KEF in this region. May be both has same level of distortion that I am not understanding what is the real sound, and what is the distortion as it’s harmonic. But what I can hear is at my listening spot is the rolled off highs on the KEF, which is another deviation from ideal which is easily audible. Also, the rear port on the Kef was causing a huge Peak at 38 Hz in my room of 13 db !. I have eqed it to sound flat at my spot. Out of the box therefore it sounded less accurate. . The cantons have a special bass port which was evenly spreading the bass without any tweak and also placing anywhere. It’s 40 percent open to the rear and 60percent to the front. Somehow it worked like magic.

If it’s available in your country, why don’t you just give it a listen for 10 minutes and see if you can hear the distortion rather than assuming things? .
 
I had used it in my room and now I have a KEF reference 3. I donot hear anything better on the KEF in this region. May be both has same level of distortion that I am not understanding what is the real sound, and what is the distortion as it’s harmonic. But what I can hear is at my listening spot is the rolled off highs on the KEF, which is another deviation from ideal which is easily audible. Also, the rear port on the Kef was causing a huge Peak at 38 Hz in my room of 13 db !. I have eqed it to sound flat at my spot. Out of the box therefore it sounded less accurate. . The cantons have a special bass port which was evenly spreading the bass without any tweak and also placing anywhere. It’s 40 percent open to the rear and 60percent to the front. Somehow it worked like magic.

If it’s available in your country, why don’t you just give it a listen for 10 minutes and see if you can hear the distortion rather than assuming things? .
Because it's a waste of time to the guy who sales speakers and me, i find kind of worthless the '' store listening test ''. I when i started in the HiFi world i liked to test thing and waste my time, even with things like different combinations of dac/pre/powers, now i find it very boring, such things as distortion i find super annoyng, that why i dodge high distortion mid ranges. Because in my experience, even with EQ i can't make them sound to my taste.



Btw, Im not assuming, things that 1.5% 3rd harmonic is a bad thing, is not because myself writing things, things like that are know problems. As i said, the 2nd harmonic is not a problem.
Is not because '' I assuming the 2nd harmonic less a problematic '', it is what it is.
That's why the HiFi-Voice reviewer who measure the distortion point the problem, is not because i told him to wrote that thing.

In fact, lately another review who focus his measurement in the '' resonances '' find also in the exact same region, a ressonance:
622canton.lab2.jpg

Cabinet modes are well controlled but mild, high-Q resonances in the cones are visible at 3-6kHz

Both things, the resonance and the thd, is what make me dodge that mid range from the old K series.

But for example the JBL 4367 only has high 2nd distortion/low 3rd distortion with no resonance.

Pd: In my case i got a 12dB boost at 88hz in the right channel
 
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Because it's a waste of time to the guy who sales speakers and me, i find kind of worthless the '' store listening test ''. I when i started in the HiFi world i liked to test thing and waste my time, even with things like different combinations of dac/pre/powers, now i find it very boring, such things as distortion i find super annoyng, that why i dodge high distortion mid ranges. Because in my experience, even with EQ i can't make them sound to my taste.



Btw, Im not assuming, things that 1.5% 3rd harmonic is a bad thing, is not because myself writing things, things like that are know problems. As i said, the 2nd harmonic is not a problem.
Is not because '' I assuming the 2nd harmonic less a problematic '', it is what it is.
That's why the HiFi-Voice reviewer who measure the distortion point the problem, is not because i told him to wrote that thing.

In fact, lately another review who focus his measurement in the '' resonances '' find also in the exact same region, a ressonance:
622canton.lab2.jpg

Cabinet modes are well controlled but mild, high-Q resonances in the cones are visible at 3-6kHz

Both things, the resonance and the thd, is what make me dodge that mid range from the old K series.

But for example the JBL 4367 only has high 2nd distortion/low 3rd distortion with no resonance.

Pd: In my case i got a 12dB boost at 88hz in the right channel
I am not saying the graphs are wrong. I am also not asking you to listen to the speakers to see how do they sound in general as it’s hard to judge the sound of any speaker at a showroom. Instead you know there is distortion in the measurement, and if it’s audible, you will hear it when you take a listening test. Distortion will not disappear in any room. So it’s safe to listen to test it!
 
I am not saying the graphs are wrong. I am also not asking you to listen to the speakers to see how do they sound in general as it’s hard to judge the sound of any speaker at a showroom. Instead you know there is distortion in the measurement, and if it’s audible, you will hear it when you take a listening test. Distortion will not disappear in any room. So it’s safe to listen to test it!
For these things, i run <tones test/swap fr>
Imagine being a dealer, and a savage young guy with his notebook appears just for testing tones and fr swap instead of listening the songs that you have in CDs and have 0 interest in buying the speaker.
Wild.
No sorry, i will wait for the measurements from the new canto line. Poor dealer, i can feel the shame only imagining
 
For these things, i run <tones test/swap fr>
Imagine being a dealer, and a savage young guy with his notebook appears just for testing tones and fr swap instead of listening the songs that you have in CDs and have 0 interest in buying the speaker.
Wild.
No sorry, i will wait for the measurements from the new canto line. Poor dealer, i can feel the shame only imagining
Go with a cd burned with some songs and some test tones in this problematic region. Try it out and see if you hear it.. I tried it myself and I couldn’t hear anything wrong at my home. I have a speaker which measures better than it now and I hear the same tones on them. This is unnecessary exaggeration of bullshit which you have no clue of.

In one of your older post you had mentioned that you boosted the low bass region of your Kef r7 which has definitely more easily audible distortion at that region. Yet you never heard it until you learned about distortion. So it’s mind playing games with you in this case. Every now and then this is discussed here over and over again pointlessly. Even if they didn’t fix this issue which is on paper, they won’t be any bad. There are lot of audibly nice things about that speaker which makes it one of the best in it’s class. I would easily trade my reference 3 for a 3K if they reduce the price as part of some close out sale.
 
Go with a cd burned with some songs and some test tones in this problematic region. Try it out and see if you hear it.. I tried it myself and I couldn’t hear anything wrong at my home. I have a speaker which measures better than it now and I hear the same tones on them. This is unnecessary exaggeration of bullshit which you have no clue of.

In one of your older post you had mentioned that you boosted the low bass region of your Kef r7 which has definitely more easily audible distortion at that region. Yet you never heard it until you learned about distortion. So it’s mind playing games with you in this case. Every now and then this is discussed here over and over again pointlessly. Even if they didn’t fix this issue which is on paper, they won’t be any bad. There are lot of audibly nice things about that speaker which makes it one of the best in it’s class. I would easily trade my reference 3 for a 3K if they reduce the price as part of some close out sale.
Lol.
I boost the mid bass because of a cancellation in my room not the subbass, because i got a lot of room gain in the subbass.
Both the r7 and 7k has the exact same limit spl due to its subbass, which is 105dB. X2 111dB.

In fact, the mid bass on the R has lower distortion.(100-150hz).
The plan in the future for fixing this problem in a bigger, as many members here do with the R and Reference is just cross the main 80hz-20khz and add dual subwoofers 20hz-80hz, problem solved.

Sure you can ask canton to give me a pair of 7K for testing in my home, because you want so bad to do myself a boring listening test, i can give you my time, that's the best i can offer. I also need a umik1, i need to correct the room too, i dont longer have one.

The weird thing is you want the 3K, but the equivalent of your ref3 is the 7k..
 
The weird thing is you want the 3K, but the equivalent of your ref3 is the 7k..
Not Pricewise. Kef reference is twice or even more expensive than the 7K. Driver size wise yes. And probably 7k has an edge there.

Sound quality wise, I would rate them equal as both has different strengths.
 
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Sure you can ask canton to give me a pair of 7K for testing in my home, because you want so bad to do myself a boring listening test, i can give you my time, that's the best i can offer. I also need a umik1, i need to correct the room too, i dont longer have one.
I do not think any dealer in their clear mind would lend you one, considering how prejudistic you are on somehthing you have no clue about. Also, deep inside you are a Kef fanboy from your posts and only thing that would satisfy you is another KEF.
 
I do not think any dealer in their clear mind would lend you one, considering how prejudistic you are on somehthing you have no clue about. Also, deep inside you are a Kef fanboy from your posts and only thing that would satisfy you is another KEF.
Or another good measurement speaker, kef is not the only one who measures well
For example, Revels measures well, the ugly jbl 4367 too, etc etc…
In the end, the good ceramic drivers are the accuton and revels, and vimberg mino measures excellent :) the problem is the price, lol.
To me, the cantons are only good looking, if i want good sq + wide directivity, there is Revels Be series, there is no reason for go with cantons over revels, thats why many members has revels and even the owner of the forum has the salon 2
 
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I think the Cantons are more appreciated in Germany. I used to have several models myself, e.g. back in the seventies the legendary LE 600 but also again 20 years ago the big ERGO floor standers. I know some people who have good speakers from this long established and experienced manufacturer. However, I have never seen Revel speakers at other audio friends in Europe. That seems to be more the American taste.
 
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Or another good measurement speaker, kef is not the only one who measures well
For example, Revels measures well, the ugly jbl 4367 too, etc etc…
In the end, the good ceramic drivers are the accuton and revels, and vimberg mino measures excellent :) the problem is the price, lol.
To me, the cantons are only good looking, if i want good sq + wide directivity, there is Revels Be series, there is no reason for go with cantons over revels, thats why many members has revels and even the owner of the forum has the salon 2
Most of the members in this forum are English speaking. Hardly few members are Germans here. In germany, revels are sold very very veryless as there is only one dealer around. Anyone who is into hifi in Germany had had atleast one canton in their lifetime at home. It’s that popular. I myself wanted to buy the revel but had to travel around 500 kms to just to have a look at it before getting into my living room. At the end, I ended up getting a KEF which every dealer had on discounts since nobody likes it here. Their ignorance is our benefit. People have no clue about how good sound should be. They all fall for wide sounstage, airy treble, and the large bodied mids from the 7 inch driver. But we know with the Kef with DSP, everything can be improved.
 
My first was Heco, the second Magnat.
Since then only DIY for over 30 years, except for EC-Living for convenience in the living room and peace with my wife ;)
 
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