The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[dlaloum]

Thanks for the replies! I'm processing away ...

@mike70, It makes perfect sense to upgrade the cartridge. I used Grado's 30 years ago and it does not look like they have changed much. The vm95ml is cheap enough to be a no-brainer. And the vm540ml is well within reach.

There has been NO progress in cartridges/cantilevers/needles since the 80's - the peak of technology in that field was reached in the mid 1980's and has not been surpassed.
The Grado design is limited primarily by the needle fitted - the top grade needles for it are just under US$500 - and the resulting "FankenGrado" - will perform on a par with the TOTL Grado "woodies" that cost far far more.

The VM95 has a core generator that is used for everything from $50 very basic models, up to the Clearaudio Maestro - again the difference is primarily the needle fitted. (so yeah, you can buy the cheapest model available and then hunt for a top grade needle)

the VM540 is from AT's premium body range - and comes standard with a much better needle

I like the AT's and I like the Grado's - one is not better than the other - they do have a different character though

In any MM / MI cartridge type, the suspension (and therefore the compliance) goes with the needle, so when changing needle you may potentially be changing the compliance - and therefore the matching with the arm.

Get the best stylus you can afford that properly matches with your arm mass - regardless of brand or type of cartridge

With a 12g arm ... you should aim for something with a VTF around 1.5g.... 2g would be too high, and 1.25g would be marginal on the low end

 

[Holmz]

…
Great suggestion @Holmz, I had no idea someone like Thom was local. I'll give him a call.

I have bought anything from him yet, but I pay him for advice.
His has saved me more more funds than it costs.

If the TT needs some TLC or setup, then I would certainly be trying him first.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Thanks for the replies! I'm processing away ...



@Bob from Florida, I have not seriously listened to records in quite a while. Right now, I'm using an old Musical Fidelity V-LPS mm/mc preamp module into a Behringer MX602A mixer and from there balanced line level into my Genelecs. I also have an E1DA Cos ADC and one APU, so I can try that as well.

Grado's always picked up 60 HZ hum - no shielding - I gave up on them. Your current phono preamp limits your choices for moving coils because of the 100 ohm load. The iFi Zen gives better choices and is economical. The Hana SL works well in my system with the IFi Zen

 

[dlaloum]

Grado's always picked up 60 HZ hum - no shielding - I gave up on them. Your current phono preamp limits your choices for moving coils because of the 100 ohm load. The iFi Zen gives better choices and is economical. The Hana SL works well in my system with the IFi Zen

Never had hum issues with my Grado's.... but that will be very TT specific. Others can weigh in with their Linn based experiences.

I've run Grado on a JVC QL-Y5F and a Revox B795 Linatrack - no hum issues.

 

[JP]

Wasn't there a Grado hum database on VE where people reported troublesome combinations?

 

[dougi]

The VM95 has a core generator that is used for everything from $50 very basic models, up to the Clearaudio Maestro - again the difference is primarily the needle fitted. (so yeah, you can buy the cheapest model available and then hunt for a top grade needle)

Yes, after I learnt this I have now fitted a VM95ML stylus to my old Clearaudio Aurum Beta S Wood cart. Snaps straight in after removing the label plate at the front of the cart! Sounds good too.

 

[dlaloum]

Yes, after I learnt this I have now fitted a VM95ML stylus to my old Clearaudio Aurum Beta S Wood cart. Snaps straight in after removing the label plate at the front of the cart! Sounds good too.

Various peeps have experimented with cutting off the excess plastic surround on the standard AT95 styli, and leaving nothing but the plug, as per clearaudio practice....

The claim being that it removes various parasitic vibrations....

I am unconvinced, I think it is mostly snake oil, marketing designed to keep their customers locked into their high margin styli!

 

[dlaloum]

Wasn't there a Grado hum database on VE where people reported troublesome combinations?

Thanks for the reminder:

Grado Hum Database- Vinyl Engine

www.vinylengine.com

 

[mike70]

ous peeps have experimented with cutting off the excess plastic surround on the standard AT95 styli, and leaving nothing but the plug, as per clearaudio practice....

The claim being that it removes various parasitic vibrations....

I am unconvinced, I think it is mostly snake oil, marketing designed to keep their customers locked into their high margin sty

Well, you can do something not much complicated to check it out.

Digitalize a good sounding track (with same preamp, cables, audio interface, etc) with and without the modification. Then use the ABX comparator in the Foobar 2000 audio player.

Done. If you can recognize the modified cartridge in 8 of 10 times (or more) ... it isn't snake oil.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Never had hum issues with my Grado's.... but that will be very TT specific. Others can weigh in with their Linn based experiences.

I've run Grado on a JVC QL-Y5F and a Revox B795 Linatrack - no hum issues.

Yes, the turntable definitely contributes to the hum. My old Dual 505 was a big time source. However, when I replaced the Dual with the Merrill Heirloom and tried a Grado wood body it still hummed some. The Merrill's 2 phase motor lived in a cast iron oil filled cup all the way on the other side of the table and the humming occurred whether power was connected or not. Further investigation showed the AC wiring in the wall directly behind my rack was the source. Moving the turntable out into to room solve the hum. Since this was not practical I went back to my Garrett Brothers P77 - late 1980's. Joe Grado used to answer their business line back then and we had a discussion about the merits of mu metal shielding. Grado's position was and still is that shielding the cartridge compromises sound quality. I liked the tonal balance of their cartridges but the hum was a deal breaker in my case.

 

[Holmz]

Yes, the turntable definitely contributes to the hum. My old Dual 505 was a big time source. However, when I replaced the Dual with the Merrill Heirloom and tried a Grado wood body it still hummed some. The Merrill's 2 phase motor lived in a cast iron oil filled cup all the way on the other side of the table and the humming occurred whether power was connected or not. Further investigation showed the AC wiring in the wall directly behind my rack was the source. Moving the turntable out into to room solve the hum. Since this was not practical I went back to my Garrett Brothers P77 - late 1980's. Joe Grado used to answer their business line back then and we had a discussion about the merits of mu metal shielding. Grado's position was and still is that shielding the cartridge compromises sound quality. I liked the tonal balance of their cartridges but the hum was a deal breaker in my case.

I used an ADC/DAC to capture the TT signal and see some 50Hz and 150 and 250Hz components at -58dB(Fs).
That is with the arm on the rest.

I suppose I should short the inputs on the phono stage, and start working backward to figure out if it is the ADC, cables, or cart picking up a magnetic field.
The harmonics are narrow,
But it makes it hard to evaluate low freq performance like rumble with the wide 50Hz hump, which sits on a wide pedestal from 30-60Hz...

 

[Bob from Florida]

I used an ADC/DAC to capture the TT signal and see some 50Hz and 150 and 250Hz components at -58dB(Fs).
That is with the arm on the rest.

I suppose I should short the inputs on the phono stage, and start working backward to figure out if it is the ADC, cables, or cart picking up a magnetic field.
The harmonics are narrow,
But it makes it hard to evaluate low freq performance like rumble with the wide 50Hz hump, which sits on a wide pedestal from 30-60Hz...

If you feel like living dangerously, measure the hum with the cartridge mounted then unmount the cartridge and rotate 90 degrees and use blue painter tape to maintain that position. Then remeasure the hum. Rotating the cartridge 90 degrees in the azimuth direction should change the coupling for better or worse - if your primary hum source is coupling to the coils in the cartridge.

 

[Holmz]

If you feel like living dangerously, measure the hum with the cartridge mounted then unmount the cartridge and rotate 90 degrees and use blue painter tape to maintain that position. Then remeasure the hum. Rotating the cartridge 90 degrees in the azimuth direction should change the coupling for better or worse - if your primary hum source is coupling to the coils in the cartridge.

^Very nice suggestion^!
(Thanks)

We did have a terrible hum problem ~20 years ago.
Only on the TT, and after an hour the Haus-Boss asked what I was doing, and she said it is not that bad, “you can barely hear it.”

Then she asked what I did to trouble shoot it.
And I explain star grounds and how I had every thing powered off in the house except for the lights.
She flipped the light switch and the hum vanished.
Up the ladder I went and found the lights were wired like a big coil 9’ x 20’.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Went to Renninger’s market today in Mount Dora to walk around and browse. Ran across a used record booth - very nice as the dude had taken the trouble to group by genre and artist. Found a Maynard Fergusan LP I did not own - Primal Scream. Vinyl looked mint, will clean it and play tomorrow!

 

[Cote Dazur]

Well, you can do something not much complicated to check it out.

Digitalize a good sounding track (with same preamp, cables, audio interface, etc) with and without the modification. Then use the ABX comparator in the Foobar 2000 audio player.

Done. If you can recognize the modified cartridge in 8 of 10 times (or more) ... it isn't snake oil.

I love my LP12 TT and enjoy listening to music with it. Is there a site (sites) where they do just what you recommended?
I have an LP12, if one goes to a site discussing the LP12 and the merits of all the possible upgrade combinations, you will never see an offer of a digitalization of any 2 different combinations. In this day and age nothing would be more simple to do. It would allow anyone to compare. We could hear those “huge differences”. Judge with an ABX test which one we prefer, if there is any differences.
Without a way to objectively judge of the value of those expensive proposed “upgrades” I for one will not even consider going down that road.

 

[Holmz]

I love my LP12 TT and enjoy listening to music with it. Is there a site (sites) where they do just what you recommended?
I have an LP12, if one goes to a site discussing the LP12 and the merits of all the possible upgrade combinations, you will never see an offer of a digitalization of any 2 different combinations. In this day and age nothing would be more simple to do. It would allow anyone to compare. We could hear those “huge differences”. Judge with an ABX test which one we prefer, if there is any differences.
Without a way to objectively judge of the value of those expensive proposed “upgrades” I for one will not even consider going down that road.

It is also pretty handy to use the digitised files to aid in cable management.
Sort of like a non real-time O-scope.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Went to Renninger’s market today in Mount Dora to walk around and browse. Ran across a used record booth - very nice as the dude had taken the trouble to group by genre and artist. Found a Maynard Fergusan LP I did not own - Primal Scream. Vinyl looked mint, will clean it and play tomorrow!

View attachment 256006

Played the album after cleaning- no pops or scratches, bonus points for that. The actual music was okay. I was expecting more because Bob James was on keyboards, but worth listening to…. Not on the same level as “MF Horn”.

 

[Bob from Florida]

I am looking forward to receiving my Parks Waxwing later this month - anxious to explore the functions and maybe rip some music to the server. Yesterday, got an email from Schiit touting new products - including the below. Skoll - balanced and unbalance input and output!

Schiit Audio: Audio Products Designed and Built in Texas and California

www.schiit.com

This doesn’t change why I ordered the Waxwing, but - Schiit! They have a 555 analyzer and it will be interesting to see if the specs pass muster if amir gets one to test. Nothing else out there anywhere close to the price with its features. The only odd thing from the specs were the resistive loading options for MC. Topping out at 150 ohms seems odd - could it be a misprint?

 

[Newman]

I am looking forward to receiving my Parks Waxwing later this month - anxious to explore the functions and maybe rip some music to the server.

I had a look at their list of differences vis-a-vis the Puffin, and it doesn't mention any upgrade to the low 19 mV input clipping voltage of the Puffin. A pity, because that is my main issue with the Puffin that stops me from considering one.

Yesterday, got an email from Schiit touting new products - including the below. Skoll - balanced and unbalance input and output!

Schiit Audio: Audio Products Designed and Built in Texas and California

www.schiit.com

This doesn’t change why I ordered the Waxwing, but - Schiit! They have a 555 analyzer and it will be interesting to see if the specs pass muster if amir gets one to test.

The APx report is on the website, link. Can anyone familiar with reading an APx report tell us if it helps us to understand the input clipping voltage? It doesn't include the words 'clipping' or 'margin', so maybe it isn't there.

Nothing else out there anywhere close to the price with its features.

I once got all excited about pursuing an all-balanced signal path for a phono amp...but the more I looked into it, the less of a point there seems to be in having balanced phono amp inputs. Apart from the poor idea of not having the phono amp anywhere near to the turntable, can anyone explain an advantage to balanced phono amp inputs?

cheers

 

[levimax]

I once got all excited about pursuing an all-balanced signal path for a phono amp...but the more I looked into it, the less of a point there seems to be in having balanced phono amp inputs. Apart from the poor idea of not having the phono amp anywhere near to the turntable, can anyone explain an advantage to balanced phono amp inputs?

cheers

I had unsolvable issues with noise pickup (hum and WiFi) with unbalanced to phono pre so I decided to go all balanced but it is not a standard set up. I go balanced to SUT to balanced transmitter with 47 Khm input impeadance to balanced ADC and do RIAA digitally. Can't say for sure what part makes the difference but noise is not an issue any more which is the point of balanced.