The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[Bob from Florida]

There have been a number of threads started that seem to descend into vinyl bashing, bullying, and lack of respect. The title of this thread should set the tone. If your are tempted to post here in a “Tellarite” manner - Trekkies will recognize this reference - don’t do it here. Instead start a “Tellarite” mutual insults thread where those “Tellarite” urges will be appreciated.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Okay, first topic I would like to discuss - moving coil demagnetizers. I bought one of these many years ago after getting my first moving coil - http://www.aesthetix.net/demagnetizer.php . If you go to the link and read the description, it seems the validity of the product hinges on the coils being wound on ferrous material that would become magnetic from exposure to the cartridge magnetic field. Flux busting this core material would, in theory, keep coil motion free from magnetic interference and result in some audible difference. Now, I think I can hear “something” whenever I use my demagnetizer. Perhaps more “air” in the playback, but I could be imagining this. So, how to verify with test gear on hand. My Hana SL has never been flux busted and I have been using it for close to a year and it sat unused for 2 years prior to me purchasing it - should be ready to flux bust for maximum effect. What I propose is to play a pink noise track and use the spectrum analyzer on my iPhone to listen at a set location and volume from the loudspeaker. Next, I flux bust and play same track and capture another sample. No change in position or volume. Before I do this - only get one chance without waiting weeks or months - comments on my proposed test on how to improve accuracy are welcome.

As a side note, I ran across this product while researching this topic - https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/cartridges/type/moving-coil/at-art1000 - a moving coil with “air coils”. Seems like it would be never in need of flux busting. Not your usual cheap Audio-Technica by a long shot!

 

[Cote Dazur]

First thank you for starting this thread.
Interested in your test of the MC demagnetizer, I have been using MC cartridge for the last 20 years and I have to admit that I never heard of that device, so curious on what your test will show up.

 

[BDWoody]

I've always tried to keep my cartridges away from any kind of potential charge or magnets or anything like that. I'll be interested in the answers as well.

 

[RayKay]

Thanks for starting this thread.

The problem I see with using demagnetizers on MC cartridges is - how do you demagnetize the core that the coils are wound on (assuming it's not an air core) without demagnetizing or altering the intensity of the main magnet? If, like you said, the MC has air core coils then the whole question is mute. If the concept is legitimate, then it would make more sense to apply it to MM cartridges (after you remove the stylus) or MI cartridges if the magnet is separate from the poles the coils are wound on. I'm not sure that demagnitizing cartridge poles/coils is similar enough to magnetic tape head demagnetization for the knowledge base of that subject to be directly applicable to cartridges.

I've studied the effects of core saturation on a power transformer that I wanted to use at marginal over-voltage conditions by measuring the secondary voltage total harmonic distortion at progressively greater levels of primary over-voltage. The distortion increased more or less linearly with the increase in over-voltage. Presumably the THD would skyrocket at the point the core saturated but I didn't push it that far.

I should think a similar effect would be measurable by playing test tones at increasing levels of groove modulation before fluxbusting and then repeating the same tests after fluxbusting. The problem with such a test is keeping the "all other things being equal" equal. I suspect that even if meaningful measurements are found, the effects would not be audible on blind testing.

 

[DVDdoug]

There's no logical reason for it to get accidently magnetized. Most incidental/accidental magnetic fields are weak and AC. AC fields are used to de-magnetize, although they can cause magnetization if power is shut-off mid-cycle.

A static magnetic field doesn't have any effect on a coil. It has to be changing or moving.

If you completely demagnetize the cartridge you no longer have a generator... It's not going to work. So, let's hope the demagnetizer isn't too effective! I think you'd have to disassemble the cartridge and de-magnetize any iron parts except for the magnet.

...A magnetized tape head CAN erase, or mess-up, the tape.

Now, I think I can hear “something” whenever I use my demagnetizer.

"Something" is kind-of useless... If it makes a change it would likely be distortion, or frequency response, or output-level. Something REAL... Try to avoid audiophile nonsense like "more musical" or "more detailed".

A valid experiment would be to record the output and then do a blind ABX Test. (Make sure to time-align the files.)

...If you can hear a difference 10 out of 10 times in an ABX test, then I'll accept that you're hearing "something" even if you can't describe it with scientific or engineering terminology.

What I propose is to play a pink noise track and use the spectrum analyzer on my iPhone to listen at a set location and volume from the loudspeaker.

That might work but it can be tricky for a couple of reasons... Pink noise is noise which means it has a random element and it's hard to get precise measurements. I'm not saying it's invalid, just that subtle differences are difficult to measure precisely.

And, I would remove the acoustic measurements. Acoustic measurements are tricky, especially at high-frequencies. Just moving around in the room can make a measurable change, even it it's not an audible change. With high-frequency test-tones just slightly-moving or turning your head can make an audible change, and similarly slight microphone movement, or walking around in the room will change the measurements.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

The moving coil I had used a ceramic coil former, so there would be nothing to become magnetized. I can't imagine why a moving coil would use a ferrous core since the added weight would negate the advantage of a light, moving coil. So I'm a bit skeptical of the need to demagnetize a cartridge. I'd assume the coercivity of the main magnet would be high enough to not be affected by a demagnetizer. One of the tracks on my "Ultimate Analog Test LP (Acoustic Sounds) is pink noise to be used to 'demagnetize' your cartridge, so I don't know what's up with that!

I'll be interested in your results, but until then, color me skeptical.

PS Thanks for starting this thread!

 

[IPunchCholla]

Thanks for starting the thread! I was just about to start one myself. Now I’m wondering if it would be better to simply join this one.. I had a slightly narrower focus in mind, given my own newbie status.

There seems to be a persistent belief that good vinyl playback is expensive. Very expensive. I do not believe this to be true. in My own system, the vinyl bit of the stack is a turntable and a phono stage. We can throw in a cleaning kit as well. The pre-amp and amp and speakers are shared with the digital stack. So for the vinyl part I’ve spent around $350. $75 for the turntable, $180 for the phono stage, $45 for a new stylus, and $25 for the cleaning kit and new RCA cables. I am able to A/B the two sources and think my vinyl playback sounds very, very good. Good enough that walking into the room, I would have to listen for a while before I would be able to tell a difference while music is playing (given clean vinyl).

I’m wondering if this thread is a good space for a sub discussion on vinylphillia on the cheap or if I should start a whole new thread.

 

[Bob from Florida]

There's no logical reason for it to get accidently magnetized. Most incidental/accidental magnetic fields are weak and AC. AC fields are used to de-magnetize, although they can cause magnetization if power is shut-off mid-cycle.

A static magnetic field doesn't have any effect on a coil. It has to be changing or moving.

If you completely demagnetize the cartridge you no longer have a generator... It's not going to work. So, let's hope the demagnetizer isn't too effective! I think you'd have to disassemble the cartridge and de-magnetize any iron parts except for the magnet.

...A magnetized tape head CAN erase, or mess-up, the tape.


"Something" is kind-of useless... If it makes a change it would likely be distortion, or frequency response, or output-level. Something REAL... Try to avoid audiophile nonsense like "more musical" or "more detailed".

A valid experiment would be to record the output and then do a blind ABX Test. (Make sure to time-align the files.)

...If you can hear a difference 10 out of 10 times in an ABX test, then I'll accept that you're hearing "something" even if you can't describe it with scientific or engineering terminology.

Aesthetix claims the coil is wound on a small amount of ferrous material. If that is true then exposure to the strong magnetic field will magnetize that core material. The flux buster puts a slowly increasing sine wave on the coil that peaks then decreases back to zero. That sine wave is what disrupts any magnetism in the core. This AC magnetic field generated is not significant to the magnets in the cartridge. It would be impossible to do so - the moving coil wires would melt long before sufficient current could be reached to disrupt the pole magnets.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Aesthetix claims the coil is wound on a small amount of ferrous material. If that is true then exposure to the strong magnetic field will magnetize that core material. The flux buster puts a slowly increasing sine wave on the coil that peaks then decreases back to zero. That sine wave is what disrupts any magnetism in the core. This AC magnetic field generated is not significant to the magnets in the cartridge. It would be impossible to do so - the moving coil wires would melt long before sufficient current could be reached to disrupt the pole magnets.

If the core is ferric, then yes, I can see the need to demagnetize. I just for the life of me can't imagine why the core needs to be ferrous though.

 

[Soniclife]

Now, I think I can hear “something” whenever I use my demagnetizer. Perhaps more “air” in the playback, but I could be imagining this.

Does this normally go along with other cleaning or tweaking of your system? I'll be interested in the measurement when you do it.

 

[Cote Dazur]

I’m wondering if this thread is a good space for a sub discussion on vinylphillia on the cheap or if I should start a whole new thread.

If I may, I would suggest that their is only one thread, as this thread, if i understand the situation will be the “safe heaven” thread we’re we can have exchange without interferences.
To your positon on questioning if spending more gets you a better vinyl experience, this is such an important subject for anyone curious about playing records. My experience, from many decades, is that their is a big difference when getting in better engineered equipment.
But to your point, is a basic record player set up enough to enjoy the fruits, I do not know. When I started my TT journey, upgrading meant from good to better, not from bad to good, so it probably is.
If I am correct, the upside is that if someone curious is happy with the result of a basic setup there is a very nice journey to an even better music experience down the road.

 

[JP]

What I propose is to play a pink noise track and use the spectrum analyzer on my iPhone to listen at a set location and volume from the loudspeaker.

Too many variables - you need to record the electrical signal, not the acoustic output of your speakers. You also need to design the experiment to answer specific questions.

 

[IPunchCholla]

If I may, I would suggest that their is only one thread, as this thread, if i understand the situation will be the “safe heaven” thread we’re we can have exchange without interferences.
To your positon on questioning if spending more gets you a better vinyl experience, this is such an important subject for anyone curious about playing records. My experience, from many decades, is that their is a big difference when getting in better engineered equipment.
But to your point, is a basic record player set up enough to enjoy the fruits, I do not know. When I started my TT journey, upgrading meant from good to better, not from bad to good, so it probably is.
If I am correct, the upside is that if someone curious is happy with the result of a basic setup there is a very nice journey to an even better music experience down the road.

I don’t mind interference. What I’m looking for is science based discussion that maybe starts with assumption cheap is good and then uses evidence backed arguments to show what might be better and as important, how much better in real world conditions. I know this is a tall task, but we could break it down To chassis, platter, stylus, cartridge, tone arm, phono stage.

for example, I have a Technics SL-QD33. It’s a light chassis and light platter machine. But the feet are spring loaded. Given that it is on a metal shelf standing on carpet on concrete, is there any evidence that a heavy plinth or heavier chassis would make audible differences?

or, what is the most wow/flutter that people can hear? With test tones? With music? mines at .08 (double sigma) or .05 (RMS) is there any benefit to looking for higher.

 

[sergeauckland]

I too have heard of MC cartridge demagnetisers, but along with CD (and LP!) demagnetisers, couldn't see what there was to demagnetise. My AT33 cartridge has air-cored coils, I think, and my EMT TSD15, which seemingly was based on the Ortofon SPU design, and my other Ortofon, an MC15, cartridge have coils wound on formers that look like some form of plastic/fibre/resin, and so not magnetic.

I don't know of an MC cartridge which would have the coils wound on a ferromagnetic former, as I can't think what benefit that would provide. I can think of one major disadvantage to a magnetic coil former, in keeping it geometrically centred in the magnetic gap.

That being the case, what's there to demagnetise?

S.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Too many variables - you need to record the electrical signal, not the acoustic output of your speakers. You also need to design the experiment to answer specific questions.

I appreciate your message. The question I would like to answer is "at the speaker output, can a difference in frequency response be measured?" If I put the iPhone in a tripod close to the speaker and once volume level is set then make a spectrum capture. Don't change anything, then flux bust and capture again. If it is enough of a difference then it should show in the spectrum plots. Would also record multiple captures before and after to eliminate one-offs due to unexpected noises. I would have to purchase an A to D converter to do anything electrical. I do have a Sony 96 by 24 handheld recorder that could be used to capture some music playback as well - before and after. If I do both I could post the clips without identification and conduct a poll.

 

[Bob from Florida]

I too have heard of MC cartridge demagnetisers, but along with CD (and LP!) demagnetisers, couldn't see what there was to demagnetise. My AT33 cartridge has air-cored coils, I think, and my EMT TSD15, which seemingly was based on the Ortofon SPU design, and my other Ortofon, an MC15, cartridge have coils wound on formers that look like some form of plastic/fibre/resin, and so not magnetic.

I don't know of an MC cartridge which would have the coils wound on a ferromagnetic former, as I can't think what benefit that would provide. I can think of one major disadvantage to a magnetic coil former, in keeping it geometrically centred in the magnetic gap.

That being the case, what's there to demagnetise?

S.

Exactly what I would like to verify.

 

[Cote Dazur]

On the subject of demagnetization of MC cartridges, has any MC cartridge manufacturer ever actually recommended to use a demagnetizer as a routine maintenance or any other reason?

 

[sergeauckland]

I don’t mind interference. What I’m looking for is science based discussion that maybe starts with assumption cheap is good and then uses evidence backed arguments to show what might be better and as important, how much better in real world conditions. I know this is a tall task, but we could break it down To chassis, platter, stylus, cartridge, tone arm, phono stage.

for example, I have a Technics SL-QD33. It’s a light chassis and light platter machine. But the feet are spring loaded. Given that it is on a metal shelf standing on carpet on concrete, is there any evidence that a heavy plinth or heavier chassis would make audible differences?

or, what is the most wow/flutter that people can hear? With test tones? With music? mines at .08 (double sigma) or .05 (RMS) is there any benefit to looking for higher.

Back in the distant past, when tape was king, and vinyl was the only mainstream consumer format, 0.1% W&F was considered the point at which it was 'good enough'. The only issue I have with lightweight platters is that wow is dynamic, in that stylus drag depends on the modulation, so a rapid transient will cause the turntable to experience a 'jerk' which can then take a while to settle down again. This can be minimised either with greater mass, or as in the case of my AEG and EMT turntables, very well designed servoes that rapidly allow for the extra drag, without overshoot. However, I accept that their effectiveness has to be taken on trust, as measuring that dynamically will be challenging. Certainly extra mass is a lot easier to engineer.

Wow and flutter (both tape and vinyl) has always been evaluated as a static measure, using a 3kHz or 3.15kHz steady tone, but unlike tape, LP modulation is dynamic and stylus drag varies with modulation, so a very low W&F measure may not necessarily result in low W&F under music conditions. I have never seen any measurements made of how stylus drag varies with modulation, so don't know if that's anything to be remotely concerned about.

I love vinyl, you can never stop fiddling with it...

S.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Description of a Rega MC cartridge below.
Notice the use "iron cross" for the coils. The benefit is increased voltage output due to higher inductance without additional turns of wire.

ANIA PRO NEW​

The latest member of our Rega MC cartridge range the Ania Pro uses our advanced Vital profile nude diamond stylus. This profile is designed to extract as much detail from the vinyl surface as possible. The Ania Pro delivers tight bass warm mid-ranges and accurate top end frequencies to offer a well balanced and detailed performance.

Listen like a Pro​

Using our unique hand-wound micro coil found in the rest of the MC range, the Ania Pro is housed in a unique PPS highly rigid body, ensuring accurate construction and Rega’s three point fixing method which offers the optimum connection to the head-shell while automatically setting overhang. The new body is protected by a CAD designed, red rigid cover to protect the internal fine wires, making handling when fitting, safe and risk free.The Ania Pro features a super high-powered, neodymium magnet and a coil meticulously hand wound on to an iron micro cross. This miniature assembly allows us greater freedom to track the vinyl groove guaranteeing even more detail is extracted from the vinyl. All of these features combine to deliver a balanced and dynamic performance that will engage you with your vinyl like never before. The Ania Pro is the perfect partner for the Planar 3, Planar 6 or Planar 8 turntable and a factory fitted option is available for both Planar 6 and Planar 8. Please ask your retailer for details.

KEY FEATURES​

• Vital profile nude diamond
• Aluminium tapered cantilever
• Iron micro cross assembly
• One of the worlds smallest MC generators
• Cutting edge high power Neodymium magnets
• Coil constructed from 0.018 mm fine wire
• Lifetime warranty against manufacture defects