The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[Deleted member 50971]

No, not at all - what you are doing is setting your cartridge up to reproduce the recording in a neutral manner - ie: not adding or detracting anything.

Then whatever record you play, you get as close as possible to the original recorded material reproduced. - ie: the very definition of High Fidelity

There is another set of EQ in the system, which is RIAA (or similar, depending on period of the recording/pressing, and location) - which was not part of the discussion... but that is more a matter of "decoding" the record - and the EQ and Loading we are discussing here is layered on top of that.

Understood, thanks.

 

[Holmz]

Over on the MC vs MM thread you can pick up some software created by a member that measures FR and distortion of your Arm / Cart / TT using a test record.
…

I can see EQ’ing to get the FR changed any which way.
But for the distortion, is it HD, IMD, etc., etc., etc.

It seems like there is little way possible to make a higher distortion cart, becomes like a lower distortion one.
??

 

[dlaloum]

I can see EQ’ing to get the FR changed any which way.
But for the distortion, is it HD, IMD, etc., etc., etc.

It seems like there is little way possible to make a higher distortion cart, becomes like a lower distortion one.
??

The key to low distortion Vinyl - is a high quality stylus - especially and particularly the cantilever.

So for MM's - you aim for the best possible stylus - something with the lowest possible effective mass - same for MC's - but you cannot exchange styli on those.

If measuring - you can either measure the distortion or measure the resonant frequency of the cantilever - the higher that resonant frequency is the better it will track, with lower distortion - the distortion will typically also peak at the resonance frequency, as the resonance reduces the stylus' tracking ability.

So a stylus like the Jico-SAS becomes a worthwhile investment - and you then use the previously mentioned methods to EQ/Load it to Neutral... the end result should be a high fidelity, low distortion transducer....

The selection criteria would be tracking ability, low effective mass - and always always - matching compliance for your tonearm's mass (which will in turn dramatically impact on tracking ability... and therefore distortion)

But that is in an ideal world - in the real world, all this loading and EQ adjustment, measurement and calculations gets complicated - I proposed that what we need is an appropriate digital phono stage to do this, about 10 years ago.... (or equivalent software on a PC) - but there is still nothing out there. (other than the TOTL Technics Integrated amp).

 

[Holmz]

The key to low distortion Vinyl - is a high quality stylus - especially and particularly the cantilever.

So for MM's - you aim for the best possible stylus - something with the lowest possible effective mass - same for MC's - but you cannot exchange styli on those.

If measuring - you can either measure the distortion or measure the resonant frequency of the cantilever - the higher that resonant frequency is the better it will track, with lower distortion - the distortion will typically also peak at the resonance frequency, as the resonance reduces the stylus' tracking ability.

So a stylus like the Jico-SAS becomes a worthwhile investment - and you then use the previously mentioned methods to EQ/Load it to Neutral... the end result should be a high fidelity, low distortion transducer....

The selection criteria would be tracking ability, low effective mass - and always always - matching compliance for your tonearm's mass (which will in turn dramatically impact on tracking ability... and therefore distortion)

But that is in an ideal world - in the real world, all this loading and EQ adjustment, measurement and calculations gets complicated - I proposed that what we need is an appropriate digital phono stage to do this, about 10 years ago.... (or equivalent software on a PC) - but there is still nothing out there. (other than the TOTL Technics Integrated amp).

I suppose I can run the Phono stage into a ADC, to get digital.
Then what?
- PEQs?
- or FIR based?

There is a finite number of those plots with 2nd and 3rd harmonic.


Let’s assume I have a good cartridge, and a good tonearm, and even a good TT.

 

[dlaloum]

I suppose I can run the Phono stage into a ADC, to get digital.
Then what?
- PEQs?
- or FIR based?

There is a finite number of those plots with 2nd and 3rd harmonic.


Let’s assume I have a good cartridge, and a good tonearm, and even a good TT.

Step 1 - have a good ADC - aim for 120db or better S/N - as you need to cater not so much for the signal/recording you want (which is most likely well within a 70db range) - but the occasional click/pop that messes with you - and which will in many cases clip the input of the ADC, causing a bunch of distortion...

Then you need a Phono stage with the output well matched to your ADC levels. The phono stage will typically also provide RIAA EQ in the analog side of things.... or you can seek out a "flat" phono stage and do RIAA digitally - more complicated... and doesn't really gain anything - but can be handy if you want the flexibility of other EQ's.
Preferably choose a phono stage that has highly flexible cartridge loading (unless you are going MC) - for MM you want a total (cables + phono stage) capacitance of around 100pf, and resistive loads you want a range that can go from around 20k to around 80k ohms. (my phono stage has been customised with built in 100k ohm, and I then use loading plugs to lower it to whatever I want... it also has no onboard additional capacitive load - again I provide that via the cables and via additional C plugs)

Next you want a good test record with which you can get Frequency response measurements - you can do it via sweeps, spot frequency, or pink noise. (I'm not up to date with the latest test records.... some test records have suspect test tracks.... so a little research is required)

Measure your F/R and adjust your loading to get a Frequency response from 1k to 20kHz that is as even as possible - you may well get peaks and troughs in there .... but if you will be digitally Eqing getting the overall response to be within +/- 5db would probably be fine... you want to avoid getting beyond the 10db out in amplitude from your 1khz reference starting point.

Once you have that F/R using your loading adjustments - then switch to digital - and apply filters to get it to a flat F/R.

If you used a pink noise track for your measurements, plenty of the digital tools will allow you to use a pink noise track for automated filter calculations/setting. Makes things easier.

If you have a choice of filter types, choose minimum phase rather than linear phase.

Digital PEQ's typically use FIR filters - and the FIR filters come in various phase versions - you can use either alternative - but life is easier if your software has pink noise base Auto EQ!

I probably should spend some time documenting all this at some point!

 

[Holmz]

Step 1 - have a good ADC - aim for 120db or better S/N - as you need to cater not so much for the signal/recording you want (which is most likely well within a 70db range) - but the occasional click/pop that messes with you - and which will in many cases clip the input of the ADC, causing a bunch of distortion...
…
I probably should spend some time documenting all this at some point!

We can use this thread as a start at documenting it.

I have an RME RAC Pro.
I have noticed that the DAC loading seems way off. To get to a loaded digital signal I need the level cranks up to the point, where I do not want to play it out the speakers.
So I’ll either switch off the amp, or see if I can adjust the RME sensitivity to be something 10-15dB below 1v peak-to-peak.

…
Then you need a Phono stage with the output well matched to your ADC levels. The phono stage will typically also provide RIAA EQ in the analog side of things.... or you can seek out a "flat" phono stage and do RIAA digitally - more complicated... and doesn't really gain anything - but can be handy if you want the flexibility of other EQ's.
Preferably choose a phono stage that has highly flexible cartridge loading (unless you are going MC) - for MM you want a total (cables + phono stage) capacitance of around 100pf, and resistive loads you want a range that can go from around 20k to around 80k ohms. (my phono stage has been customised with built in 100k ohm, and I then use loading plugs to lower it to whatever I want... it also has no onboard additional capacitive load - again I provide that via the cables and via additional C plugs)
…

I only have RIAA, not flat.
I have an existing MM cart, and a LOMC cart is en route to me.
The phono stage has lots of loading options as well as an 11dB SUT that can be switched in.

…
Next you want a good test record with which you can get Frequency response measurements - you can do it via sweeps, spot frequency, or pink noise. (I'm not up to date with the latest test records.... some test records have suspect test tracks.... so a little research is required)
…

I have a couple of them, brand new in the cover.

…
Measure your F/R and adjust your loading to get a Frequency response from 1k to 20kHz that is as even as possible - you may well get peaks and troughs in there .... but if you will be digitally Eqing getting the overall response to be within +/- 5db would probably be fine... you want to avoid getting beyond the 10db out in amplitude from your 1khz reference starting point.
…

Ah, OK.
You mean do not go so low in ohms that I loose 10dB in amplitude?

I was going to start with a high ohm number and look for high frequency IMD or some sign of RF freq oscillation… but you statement makes sense.



I’ll do the following EQ stuff later.

…
Once you have that F/R using your loading adjustments - then switch to digital - and apply filters to get it to a flat F/R.

If you used a pink noise track for your measurements, plenty of the digital tools will allow you to use a pink noise track for automated filter calculations/setting. Makes things easier.

If you have a choice of filter types, choose minimum phase rather than linear phase.

Digital PEQ's typically use FIR filters - and the FIR filters come in various phase versions - you can use either alternative - but life is easier if your software has pink noise base Auto EQ!

I probably should spend some time documenting all this at some point!

Thanks !

 

[Deleted member 50971]

Step 1 - have a good ADC - aim for 120db or better S/N - as you need to cater not so much for the signal/recording you want (which is most likely well within a 70db range) - but the occasional click/pop that messes with you - and which will in many cases clip the input of the ADC, causing a bunch of distortion...

Then you need a Phono stage with the output well matched to your ADC levels. The phono stage will typically also provide RIAA EQ in the analog side of things.... or you can seek out a "flat" phono stage and do RIAA digitally - more complicated... and doesn't really gain anything - but can be handy if you want the flexibility of other EQ's.
Preferably choose a phono stage that has highly flexible cartridge loading (unless you are going MC) - for MM you want a total (cables + phono stage) capacitance of around 100pf, and resistive loads you want a range that can go from around 20k to around 80k ohms. (my phono stage has been customised with built in 100k ohm, and I then use loading plugs to lower it to whatever I want... it also has no onboard additional capacitive load - again I provide that via the cables and via additional C plugs)

Next you want a good test record with which you can get Frequency response measurements - you can do it via sweeps, spot frequency, or pink noise. (I'm not up to date with the latest test records.... some test records have suspect test tracks.... so a little research is required)

Measure your F/R and adjust your loading to get a Frequency response from 1k to 20kHz that is as even as possible - you may well get peaks and troughs in there .... but if you will be digitally Eqing getting the overall response to be within +/- 5db would probably be fine... you want to avoid getting beyond the 10db out in amplitude from your 1khz reference starting point.

Once you have that F/R using your loading adjustments - then switch to digital - and apply filters to get it to a flat F/R.

If you used a pink noise track for your measurements, plenty of the digital tools will allow you to use a pink noise track for automated filter calculations/setting. Makes things easier.

If you have a choice of filter types, choose minimum phase rather than linear phase.

Digital PEQ's typically use FIR filters - and the FIR filters come in various phase versions - you can use either alternative - but life is easier if your software has pink noise base Auto EQ!

I probably should spend some time documenting all this at some point!

How will you know if your ADC clips?

My Parks Puffin for instance shows ADC cliipping in the gain setting, and dialing the gain in is critical. But an occasional tick/pop can cause clipping, but nothing audible.

But the gain setting is critical, as you don’t want to cause clipping from the music of course.

This ADC headroom was a challenge for Steve Parks if I remember the conversations him and I have had accurately.

I don’t know If I have the patience to do what you guys are doing on the other thread. I need to finish my listening room, and place some more treatments on the wall. For the first time I have a desire to know what my room is doing at the listening positions. But I’m not sure I have the patience for this, looks like a large rabbit-hole, but I do understand your desire to do it.

 

[pma]

How will you know if your ADC clips?

Watch the recorded waveform in Adobe Audition or Cool Edit. If you do not have it, you may use Audacity free software.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

Watch the recorded waveform in Adobe Audition or Cool Edit. If you do not have it, you may use Audacity free software.

Hi. Got it and it looks like you guys have all the bases covered, and I would not expect anything less on ASR.

I think my Parks Puffin gets me 90% or more of what you guys are achieving, and if I want flat I believe it’s neutral, and if I want boosted the settings are there for it already. There is no audible noise/distortion (to my ears) from it despite its mediocre SINAD. Now I need to finish my room and take some REW measurements, but I’m not sure if I’ll be able to interpret the graphs properly.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

What about monitoring clipping during playback? Admittedly I did not read that entire thread over there. Do you guys monitor the playback?

Edit
To clarify I run my parks puffin digital out to my DAC.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

That would be a matter between you and @Cote Dazur who asked the question. I merely asked the group for their thoughts on his question as it would apply to the topic of this thread. I thought his question was fair and phrased with courtesy…

Good morning/afternoon.

Do you play records in your setup? Just wondering.

 

[Newman]

Yes absolutely. Celestial Love by Sun Ra a couple of days back. What are you currently spinning?

 

[Deleted member 50971]

Yes absolutely. Celestial Love by Sun Ra a couple of days back. What are you currently spinning?

I am spinning a bagel into the toaster i’m late today, and my daughter is like an alarm clock. I try to get up around 5 AM so I can have an hour of me time, but I slept in today.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

I am enjoying the discussion, thanks to all for this thread, it’s nice not to be judged because I like to play some inferior media once in awhile lol.

 

[sergeauckland]

I am spinning a bagel into the toaster i’m late today, and my daughter is like an alarm clock. I try to get up around 5 AM so I can have an hour of me time, but I slept in today.

Sorry, what is this 5AM of which you speak?

S.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

Sorry, what is this 5AM of which you speak?

S.

It’s right after 4AM and before 6AM haha.

I’m a morning person because of my work, and I’ve been getting up before the chickens most of my life. The problem is by 8 or 9 PM I’m ready for bed.

 

[Bob from Florida]

It’s right after 4AM and before 6AM haha.

I’m a morning person because of my work, and I’ve been getting up before the chickens most of my life. The problem is by 8 or 9 PM I’m ready for bed.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

Lol

 

[dlaloum]

How will you know if your ADC clips?

My Parks Puffin for instance shows ADC cliipping in the gain setting, and dialing the gain in is critical. But an occasional tick/pop can cause clipping, but nothing audible.

But the gain setting is critical, as you don’t want to cause clipping from the music of course.

This ADC headroom was a challenge for Steve Parks if I remember the conversations him and I have had accurately.

I don’t know If I have the patience to do what you guys are doing on the other thread. I need to finish my listening room, and place some more treatments on the wall. For the first time I have a desire to know what my room is doing at the listening positions. But I’m not sure I have the patience for this, looks like a large rabbit-hole, but I do understand your desire to do it.

If your resulting digital signal goes to -1db (or higher) you're in trouble

For this kind of thing, the "mere" 120db we have in the better ADC's is often marginal...

Get to know your cartridge and its max output under extreme circumstances (pops/clicks/scratches)

Once your gain is set based on that, you are likely to find that your actual musical peaks end up down around -80db, -90db if you are lucky...

In a perfect world we would be seeking out true 24bit resolution dacs or even better 32bit - but the state of the art isn't there yet....

Yes it is a big rabbit hole right now, although it need not be - this could all be automated into a single component, which I have been saying for more than a decade now.

More recently, Technics have demonstrated it, by releasing their TOTL Integrated with a built in digital phono stage, and a test record - you play the test record, and the phono stage "sets itself up".... then you get on with playing music. Trouble it, it is priced well above most people's budgets!

I am waiting for Technics to release the phono stage as an external component....

 

[JP]

For this kind of thing, the "mere" 120db we have in the better ADC's is often marginal...

That’s extraordinary, and counter to anything I’ve seen running DSP RIAA for nearly a decade.