The “Right” Way to Compare Speakers?

[Aprude51]

Apologies in advance for the length of this post

I want to start by saying “thank you” to the forum. I’ve only recently become interested in audio and initially read a lot of bad advice. In fact, before coming upon ASR I was close to buying Zu Audio speakers and a Schiit amplifier! I appreciate the work ASR is doing to promote a scientific understanding of audio because it helps to protect consumers.

Having said all of that, I’m buying a new set of speakers and am struggling to make effective listening comparisons. Especially between speakers I've had in home and those I’ve only listened to elsewhere for brief periods.

I have a few pairs of speakers for in home audition (Buchardt S400, Elac Uni-Fi, JBL Stage A170), but was recently excited to find a pair of Revel M22s on Craigslist. I was even able to hear them in person for about 15 minutes: I level matched them as best I could (using my phone), took some notes on my listening experience, and listened to the same songs on the S400s when I returned home. I think I liked the S400s a bit better, but I know it’s an unfair comparison for various reasons, including that fact that I’ve had a month to get used to the Buchardt’s.

Is there anything else I can do to make the comparison more fair? Should I just rely on measurements and buy the cheaper of the two (M22s, seller is asking $600)? Although the M22s predate Revel’s use of waveguides and don’t measure as well as the S400s, their measurements are still good and their build quality is amazing.

I know it may be difficult to offer me much advice, but I appreciate any thoughts y’all can share!

 

[Kal Rubinson]

think I liked the S400s a bit better, but am worried it’s an unfair comparison since I’ve had a month to get used to the Buchardt’s.

And at separate times and under entirely different acoustical conditions.

Is there anything else I can do to make the comparison more fair?

Side-by-side, concealed by a screen from your view and switched by a 3rd party. It's a start.

 

[Aprude51]

And at separate times and under entirely different acoustical conditions.

Side-by-side, concealed by a screen from your view and switched by a 3rd party. It's a start.

Indeed! I updated my post to make it clear that I’m aware it’s not an effective comparison

Due to space constraints a screen is out of the question for me, but I am thinking about buying a speaker switch with separate volume controls to allow for level matched (via my UMIK-1) comparison. Unfortunately though that doesn’t help with speakers I can’t get into my home.

 

[watchnerd]

Apologies in advance for the length of this post

I want to start by saying “thank you” to the forum. I’ve only recently become interested in audio and initially read a lot of bad advice. In fact, before coming upon ASR I was close to buying Zu Audio speakers and a Schiit amplifier! I appreciate the work ASR is doing to promote a scientific understanding of audio because it helps to protect consumers.

Having said all of that, I’m buying a new set of speakers and am struggling to make effective listening comparisons. Especially between speakers I've had in home and those I’ve only listened to elsewhere for brief periods.

I have a few pairs of speakers for in home audition (Buchardt S400, Elac Uni-Fi, JBL Stage A170), but was recently excited to find a pair of Revel M22s on Craigslist. I was even able to hear them in person for about 15 minutes: I level matched them as best I could (using my phone), took some notes on my listening experience, and listened to the same songs on the S400s when I returned home. I think I liked the S400s a bit better, but I know it’s an unfair comparison for various reasons, including that fact that I’ve had a month to get used to the Buchardt’s.

Is there anything else I can do to make the comparison more fair? Should I just rely on measurements and buy the cheaper of the two (M22s, seller is asking $600)? Although the M22s predate Revel’s use of waveguides and don’t measure as well as the S400s, their measurements are still excellent and their build quality is amazing.

I know it may be difficult to offer me much advice, but I appreciate any thoughts y’all can share!

I know this is going to sound incredibly broad and non-specific, but it helps to know what kind of "house sound" you prefer and which manufacturers lean in that direction. Some manufacturers intentionally make speakers that sound a little "exciting" (makes a differentiated impression in a sales room), vs others others that strive to be more neutral (may lead to low listening fatigue in the long run, but may not stand out on first listen).

Also, have a sense for how loud you need the speakers to go, how soft vs loud you usually listen, and how close you sit. You can measure your average listening level, and the peaks, at home in dB with a smart phone, as well as measure the distance. Bring a tape measure to demos so you can put the seat and speakers where you sit at home. Then use the smart phone to give levels reasonable close to how loud you listen at home. It's not perfect, and doesn't account easily for room effects in the bass / lower mids, but it should be a bit relevant for the upper mids to treble.

Bring your own music, and use the same songs over and over and over. Make sure a few of the tracks are things we've all heard in real life -- acoustic guitar, piano, female acoustic singer.

 

[digicidal]

Indeed! I updated my post to make it clear that I’m aware it’s not an effective comparison

Due to space constraints a screen is out of the question for me, but I am thinking about buying a speaker switch with separate volume controls to allow for level matched (via my UMIK-1) comparison. Unfortunately though that doesn’t help with speakers I can’t get into my home.

Do you have enough space to wear one of these on your head?:

I mean sure you could get a plain black one as well... but then how much fun would that be for the person switching the speakers for you? A speaker switch might be less embarassing (and faster) - but it will cost more than the $3-5 these do. Plus you still should (optimally) have someone else set up the switch - otherwise you still know which speakers are connected to which channels. You can even take the mask to a dealer, have them do the switching, and give them a good laugh at the same time. It's win-win!

 

[jonfitch]

Apologies in advance for the length of this post

I want to start by saying “thank you” to the forum. I’ve only recently become interested in audio and initially read a lot of bad advice. In fact, before coming upon ASR I was close to buying Zu Audio speakers and a Schiit amplifier! I appreciate the work ASR is doing to promote a scientific understanding of audio because it helps to protect consumers.

Having said all of that, I’m buying a new set of speakers and am struggling to make effective listening comparisons. Especially between speakers I've had in home and those I’ve only listened to elsewhere for brief periods.

I have a few pairs of speakers for in home audition (Buchardt S400, Elac Uni-Fi, JBL Stage A170), but was recently excited to find a pair of Revel M22s on Craigslist. I was even able to hear them in person for about 15 minutes: I level matched them as best I could (using my phone), took some notes on my listening experience, and listened to the same songs on the S400s when I returned home. I think I liked the S400s a bit better, but I know it’s an unfair comparison for various reasons, including that fact that I’ve had a month to get used to the Buchardt’s.

Is there anything else I can do to make the comparison more fair? Should I just rely on measurements and buy the cheaper of the two (M22s, seller is asking $600)? Although the M22s predate Revel’s use of waveguides and don’t measure as well as the S400s, their measurements are still excellent and their build quality is amazing.

I know it may be difficult to offer me much advice, but I appreciate any thoughts y’all can share!

Revel M22 is the most contentious in the Performa series, I know a lot of Revel owners who preferred the M20 over it (including myself), as it was noticeably brighter than their previous Performa series and had comparatively a hardness in the mids, and AFAIK the titanium tweeter started breaking up right at the 20KHz line which might have contributed to the brightness. I'm actually surprised it's doing so well against the S400 as I would not consider the M22 competitive with the many quality under 2k speakers these days (KEF R3, Elac Adante AS-61, Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2-EX, Revel M105 etc--I've not heard the S400).

If I would give you a suggestion, I would listen to all of the speakers nearfield (within 5 feet-ish), pulled away from the walls. That removes as much of the room as possible and gives you the clearest window into the speakers.

 

[digicidal]

Although not necessarily cost-effective (and even less so for floorstanders) I'd love to see a 4-5 way "switch table" for auditioning purposes. Imagine a desk, with two turntables to each side (lazy susan style) and servos tied to the speaker controller. You sit blindfolded and have three buttons in front of you that are large and tactile (maybe <<, >>, and O) - LAST, NEXT, LIKE.

By putting a hole in the middle of the turntables the speaker wires could be routed through it with each of the speakers facing outward. The switch randomly selects a speaker pair each time you push the "NEXT" button - you hit the "LAST" button to re-audition the previous selection, and the "LIKE" button holds in memory a pair you indicated by holding it down. If you find a pair you like better... then you can replace it the same way - and return to it at any time by a momentary press.

There's no way it would make sense for an individual, but for enthusiast clubs or show demos it would be really cool. Each speaker could then be demo'd in exactly the same position relative to the listener, but without manual intervention. The parts cost wouldn't be too bad and the circuitry would be simple enough. Wish I was "handier" and had the space... I'd give it a shot.

 

[Juhazi]

Buchardt is using a deep waveguide which gives it's tweeter high directivity, much higher than Revel M22 or like. Some people like the snapyy treble and good imaging, but others might get annoyed of the small listening area.

Speaker comparisons are really difficult to arrange and to evaluate the candidates available. Some fatalism is needed...
Fortunately loudspeakers don't have a mind and thus don't get hurt or depressed when changing home or ending up on garage shelf!

 

[digicidal]

Speaker comparisons are really difficult to arrange and to evaluate the candidates available. Some fatalism is needed...
Fortunately loudspeakers don't have a mind and thus don't get hurt or depressed when changing home or ending up in garage shelf!

Thankfully, or I'd have two closets full of mentally disturbed gear at this point.

 

[LeftCoastTim]

Listen to one speaker. We are more critical of speaker performance when listening to one. Stereo and multichannel listening hides many flaws.

Compare more than two speakers at a time. Two speakers may have the same flaw, which you won’t notice without a third one.

These tips are from Toole.

 

[Aprude51]

Do you have enough space to wear one of these on your head?:

Good point, I guess there’s more than one way to keep the identity of the speaker under wraps.

Listen to one speaker. We are more critical of speaker performance when listening to one. Stereo and multichannel listening hides many flaws.

Compare more than two speakers at a time. Two speakers may have the same flaw, which you won’t notice without a third one.

These tips are from Toole.

I was actually testing this out last night - I setup Foobar with custom DSP options: one with balance 100% Left & one with balance 100% right. I hooked up one of each speaker and used Foobar to switch between them via a custom keyboard shortcut. My next step is to figure out a way to randomize the switching (may just be having my roommate hit the shortcuts

 

[Krunok]

Buchardt is using a deep waveguide which gives it's tweeter high directivity, much higher than Revel M22 or like.

Accoridng to spinorama of their flagship S400 speaker I don't see that stellar directivity - DI looks quite "bumpy" at the XO point.

 

[Aprude51]

Buchardt is using a deep waveguide which gives it's tweeter high directivity, much higher than Revel M22 or like. Some people like the snapyy treble and good imaging, but others might get annoyed of the small listening area.

Speaker comparisons are really difficult to arrange and to evaluate the candidates available. Some fatalism is needed...
Fortunately loudspeakers don't have a mind and thus don't get hurt or depressed when changing home or ending up on garage shelf!

I did initially find them to have a narrow sweet spot, but that has seemed to have relaxed over time.

Revel M22 is the most contentious in the Performa series, I know a lot of Revel owners who preferred the M20 over it (including myself), as it was noticeably brighter than their previous Performa series and had comparatively a hardness in the mids, and AFAIK the titanium tweeter started breaking up right at the 20KHz line which might have contributed to the brightness. I'm actually surprised it's doing so well against the S400 as I would not consider the M22 competitive with the many quality under 2k speakers these days (KEF R3, Elac Adante AS-61, Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2-EX, Revel M105 etc--I've not heard the S400).

If I would give you a suggestion, I would listen to all of the speakers nearfield (within 5 feet-ish), pulled away from the walls. That removes as much of the room as possible and gives you the clearest window into the speakers.

Thanks for both the suggestion and the info about the M22s. There are no NRC measurements for the M22, and so I was operating under the assumption that they were an improvement from the M20s. I did find measurements for the F32, which use the same tweeter, and they weren't as good as I had assumed. You can see some bad behavior around the crossover and the rising response to 20K:

To be honest, my assessment was colored by my desire to like the speakers. IMO their cabinets are beautiful, and they were available at a very reasonable price compared to the S400s. That, and I didn't realize how good their bass response was, so when I experienced it was pleasantly surprised.

 

[Aprude51]

Accoridng to spinorama of their flagship S400 speaker I don't see that stellar directivity - DI look s quite "bumpy" at the XO point.

The thread dedicated to the S400s is probably a better place to discuss that. I'm honestly not sure what is causing that dip; there's no indication of it in the horizontal response contour plots:

 

[jonfitch]

Accoridng to spinorama of their flagship S400 speaker I don't see that stellar directivity - DI look s quite "bumpy" at the XO point.

View attachment 32522

Maybe that's supposed to be a tuned BBC dip? I always thought it was weird they chose a cheap tweeter over the TW29BN because once loaded in a waveguide you can easily drop the crossover to 1600-1700hz on that driver and the directivity issue would disappear.

 

[Juhazi]

Most likely the dip that Krunok showed comes from vertical lobing around xo. It will happen in every 2-way ( except coaxials). Other graphics shown here are just horizontal dispersion. More about this can be found in other threads and sources, off-topic!

 

[Krunok]

Most likely the dip that Krunok showed comes from vertical lobing around xo. It will happen in every 2-way ( except coaxials). Other graphics shown here are just horizontal dispersion. More about this can be found in other threads and sources, off-topic!

I am not sure vertical measurements can contribute for such huge dip alone. I am also not sure that simmetrical tweeter can have extremely bad vertical dispersion while maintaining good horizontal dispersion.

 

[Krunok]

The thread dedicated to the S400s is probably a better place to discuss that. I'm honestly not sure what is causing that dip; there's no indication of it in the horizontal response contour plots:
View attachment 32543

That graph doesn't have resolution to show such dips. Sound power index and Directivity index are calculated from measurements taken from many positions.

 

[Daverz]

I did initially find them to have a narrow sweet spot, but that has seemed to have relaxed over time.

Toeing them in should widen the sweet spot by widening the listening area that is inside the -30 to +30 off-axis window shown in the polar plots (black horizontal lines).