Please help me choose a turntable...

[Balle Clorin]

Probably. Albeit (I'm just guessing) at a higher level than your typical popular price point Hanpin product. At least from the looks.

One thing to consider: back in the heyday of Japanese record players, I strongly suspect that there was an OEM producing decks for Sony, Denon, and JVC. Why do I say that? Because many of their respective models had both the inside-the-platter magnetic tape head tachometer servo, along with the interesting electro-mechanical arm damping/tracking force adjustments. I find it almost beyond belief that three different companies independently developed and put into manufacture essentially identical tech.

So, just because something is produced OEM doesn't necessarily mean it is less than worthy of consideration. That said, it would totally surprise me if the new Denon, as good as it might be, is as sophisticated as anything mid level to top tier that Denon was selling forty to fifty years ago.

My Denon DP-51F from 1982 -which is underviced and waiting to be recapped- has 1/10 of the wow and Flutter of the new Denon 3000

 

[Zapper]

This may be a dumb question, but are the differences in measurements audible?

I'll echo the previous replies to say yes, 0.21% wow is audible. That's what the RPM app says my turntable does (the afore mentioned AT-LP120USB). There is a slight, slow waver in sustained solo piano notes, slowly rising then falling once per revolution. It's much harder for me to hear in more complex music though. That TT also has a weak rumble spec. That is only audible in the quietest passages in classical recording, if the volume is turned up.

I'm not sure I care enough about my old LP collection to spend more on a better turntable, but it will be a Technics if I do. But I have to admit a weak spot for the old style walnut veneered plinths and suspended sub-chassis like the better Duals and Thorens have.

 

[LTig]

I'll echo the previous replies to say yes, 0.21% wow is audible. That's what the RPM app says my turntable does (the afore mentioned AT-LP120USB). There is a slight, slow waver in sustained solo piano notes, slowly rising then falling once per revolution.

This is probably caused by a badly centered hole in the record, not by the TT. I own one record where this is the case and it sounds bad.

 

[Robin L]

This is probably caused by a badly centered hole in the record, not by the TT. I own one record where this is the case and it sounds bad.

Only problem is, there's a lot of LPs like that. It's a problem that should have been solved years ago but hasn't.

 

[Zapper]

This is probably caused by a badly centered hole in the record, not by the TT. I own one record where this is the case and it sounds bad.

No, it's the turntable.

I can see it on the strobe as well. The strobe lines advance a little, then retreat a little, on every rotation.

 

[mhardy6647]

Probably. Albeit (I'm just guessing) at a higher level than your typical popular price point Hanpin product. At least from the looks.

One thing to consider: back in the heyday of Japanese record players, I strongly suspect that there was an OEM producing decks for Sony, Denon, and JVC. Why do I say that? Because many of their respective models had both the inside-the-platter magnetic tape head tachometer servo, along with the interesting electro-mechanical arm damping/tracking force adjustments. I find it almost beyond belief that three different companies independently developed and put into manufacture essentially identical tech.

So, just because something is produced OEM doesn't necessarily mean it is less than worthy of consideration. That said, it would totally surprise me if the new Denon, as good as it might be, is as sophisticated as anything mid level to top tier that Denon was selling forty to fifty years ago.

CEC was the OEM for many of the second-tier Japanese tts of the 1970s (e.g., some marantz and Yamaha models, some Radio Shack "Realistic" tts -- and many others).
Here's an example: The marantz 6100, a bare-bones/entry-level belt drive.

(not my image, but I did have one of these for a while)

Some Sony tts may have been CEC made. I don't think that Denon or JVC were, though. There could have been other big OEM, but I don't know. JVC certainly had the in house skill set to do a good tt (and some of those JVC decks were quite nice indeed). The V in JVC = "Victor" as in "RCA Victor" as in "Victrola" as in "His Master's Voice".

FWIW, I don't think the Denon deck mentioned earlier in this thread is Hanpin OEM. I think it's Yahorng. But that is, as they say, a SWAG based on morphology. It is almost certainly one or the other.

 

[Balle Clorin]

No, it's the turntable.
View attachment 354915
View attachment 354914
I can see it on the strobe as well. The strobe lines advance a little, then retreat a little, on every rotation.

I have seenturntables costing 30 000 usd performing worse than that. Price is not correlated to performance at all.

 

[Count Arthur]

Price is not correlated to performance at all.

That seems to be something of a theme with Hi-Fi equipment.

 

[Balle Clorin]

The same thing goes for lady’s bags…and men’s watches

 

[Zapper]

I have seenturntables costing 30 000 usd performing worse than that. Price is not correlated to performance at all.

True. At some point one passes from the best engineered products with top quality to the realm of fairy dust.

How are the old continental European brands like Dual and Thorens these days? I see the brands still exist after one or more bankruptcies. Are they making quality products or are they sourcing OEM TTs too? The TD 124 mentioned earlier in the thread was not impressive. Are all the new Thorens that bad?

 

[Golf]

I don't think the Denon deck mentioned earlier in this thread is Hanpin OEM.

Nevertheless, it doesn’t matter much to me.

With Denon’s hi-fi audio gear, one could be sure that from a certain price level upwards the devices were assembled in Japan. That threshold was somewhere between 1,000 and 2,000 Euros, depending on the respective audio sector (2-channel, AVR/C etc).

With the Denon DP-3000NE, which is well above this threshold, but assembled in China nevertheless, I see sort of a warning sign ...

 

[DSJR]

How are the old continental European brands like Dual and Thorens these days? I see the brands still exist after one or more bankruptcies. Are they making quality products or are they sourcing OEM TTs too? The TD 124 mentioned earlier in the thread was not impressive. Are all the new Thorens that bad?

Thorens seems to be a licence to make money off the name now and not sure as per Dual turntables, as the 505-5 ended life at Rega 3 price (used to be half that on the UK market) and their once cheap auto 458 was dressed to the nines as a more expensive Thorens labelled model for a while. Dual do have a newish range out but prices have risen hugely.

 

[Zapper]

The Dual CS 618Q seems to be a competitor for the Technics SL-1500C: direct drive manual with auto-stop and auto-lift and built in preamp. Specs are not as good but it looks pretty in walnut veneer. Price is about the same: $1200 for black, $1300 for walnut, vs $1300 for SL-1500C. I can't find any objective tests of it though.

 

[Jaxjax]

1. Musical Fidelity M8xTT
2. McIntosh MT5
3. McIntosh MT10
4. Technics SL-1200G

This will most likely pair with a McIntosh C12000. I presently have (2) McIntosh MC275VI, McIntosh D150, McIntosh MCT450, Cambridge Audio CXNv2 and NHT T5 speakers. I am considering Focal Diablo Utopia Color Evo speakers. I currently have a Music Hall Classic turntable routed through a Marantz Cinema 70s AVR.

Feickert....
any Feickert

 

[Purité Audio]

These look pretty decent, belt drive with servo, €2.5

Takumi - The Winning Recordplayer for the Listenar

Takumi Recordplayer is designed for perfection. With Takumi Turntable you can enjoy your favorite music, played on an elegant-looking machine with a divine sound

playtakumi.com

Keith

 

[Multicore]

One way to be a pragmatic audiophile is to

To me this is a bit like asking what’s the best knife to bring to a gun fight. You can certainly spend thousands on an expertly honed blade. I love these things. Buy the most beautiful one you can afford that cuts better than others. But at the end of the day it’s a knife. For me, I love vinyl, but I just can’t justify overspending on a turntable. If i want to win a measurement war I‘m looking for something a bit more practical. The Technics offerings are really a work of art though, no doubt about it.

I agree.

One way to be a pragmatic antiaudiophile while also indulging your desires with upscale consumer audio products is to do what @DMill says. Reject all the audio technobabble about turntables, matching, MC vs MM, belt vs direct and yawn vs zzzz and buy what turns you on most. For me there would be no contest in your shortlist but it's your choice to make.

 

[mhardy6647]

As long as none of all y'all turntable bashers is wearing an expensive Swiss mechanical watch on your wrist -- bash on!


(EDIT: yes, none is singlular... even none of all y'all is singular )

 

[Cougar80]

My Denon DP-51F from 1982 -which is underviced and waiting to be recapped- has 1/10 of the wow and Flutter of the new Denon 3000

I’m running my Dad’s Denon DP-62L he bought new in the early 80s. I recapped it a few years ago. It sounds great, is direct drive, and looks better than most anything I see out there today.

Aside from ASR having a fairly negative view on vinyl in general. What are opinions on vintage turntables?

 

[Robin L]

I’m running my Dad’s Denon DP-62L he bought new in the early 80s. I recapped it a few years ago. It sounds great, is direct drive, and looks better than most anything I see out there today.

Aside from ASR having a fairly negative view on vinyl in general. What are opinions on vintage turntables?

My opinion is that stuff wears out but direct drive turntables have less stuff to wear out. After several bad experiences I'd never touch a rim drive turntable again. Belt drive 'tables have fewer problems, but sometimes it's impossible finding replacement belts. I've had very good luck with an old (1970) Technics direct drive 'table, not a TOTL model either.

 

[mhardy6647]

My opinion is that stuff wears out but direct drive turntables have less stuff to wear out. After several bad experiences I'd never touch a rim drive turntable again. Belt drive 'tables have fewer problems, but sometimes it's impossible finding replacement belts. I've had very good luck with an old (1970) Technics direct drive 'table, not a TOTL model either.

I know what you're getting at @Robin L, but would add that:
The potential issue with the DDs of yore can be irreplaceable (in the sense of NLA) ICs.
Most of the wear-outtable stuff is common to all types of record players (e.g., arm and platter bearings, suspension components, if applicable), anyway.

Yes, there were some esoteric "solutions" to bearings... and, of course:
all generalizations are false -- including this one.