Subwoofer feels underwhelming

[Daverz]

Nope,120hz is stratosphere for subs at a distance from mains.
Have a look at the studies here:

Bass and subwoofers

This is the second in a series of follow-up posts to https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-of-lokki-bech-toole-et-al.27540/#post-950580, this time focussing on bass perception with a brief digression on subwoofers, since there's relevance to (reproduction of) concert hall acoustics. I’ve...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Sorry, I don't know what to make of all that.

 

[Sokel]

Sorry, I don't know what to make of all that.

Take one at a time,they are all very interesting readings.
I helps very much understanding why the established limits are there.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Whether 120hz works or not depends on room, subwoofer placement, the listeners sensitivity to localization, etc etc.

 

[ZolaIII]

Take one at a time,they are all very interesting readings.
I helps very much understanding why the established limits are there.

So what's new there? You need stereo sub's and allocated to mains in L & R manner for crossover point of 110~130 Hz and among different reasons to go that high primary is that it scales properly with equal loudness compensation. They do sum naturally and if you stick to 10“ one's you won't have (almost) any time domain problems. Still I would stick with sealed enclosure one's and use room length primarily first refraction for extension.

 

[Sokel]

Whether 120hz works or not depends on room, subwoofer placement, the listeners sensitivity to localization, etc etc.

So what's new there? You need stereo sub's and allocated to mains in L & R manner for crossover point of 110~130 Hz and among different reasons to go that high primary is that it scales properly with equal loudness compensation. They do sum naturally and if you stick to 10“ one's you won't have (almost) any time domain problems. Still I would stick with sealed enclosure one's and use room length primarily first refraction for extension.

When placed under or on the side of mains,yes,but put them further apart at that x-over points (and even below that) and try to listen to opera.
Never,ever heard such a setup respecting the proportions of voices and instruments,some sound smaller and some larger.

 

[er|κzvio1in]

When placed under or on the side of mains,yes,but put them further apart at that x-over points (and even below that) and try to listen to opera.
Never,ever heard such a setup respecting the proportions of voices and instruments,some sound smaller and some larger.

Have you tried different filter slopes? I assume there must be a difference between 12 and 48 dB/oct in your example. If not for the more drastic phase shifts of the 48 filter

 

[sweetsounds]

These crossovers were created with Acourate DSP software, and are actual verification measurements of the filters. The reason the two filters look so similar is because the microphone was not moved between measurements. I can switch these filters back and forth by pushing a button on my convolver. The system is a 2.2, i.e. 2 main speakers and 2 subwoofers.

There is subjectively a massive difference between the sub vs. no sub configuration. In my system, the subs are placed in the corners to provide maximum reinforcement and Griesinger's stereo sub effect. Even though the frequency response is close to identical, the version with the sub sounds more full, more enveloping, has more impact, and subjectively wider soundstage.

I can not explain why it sounds this way even though the graphs are the same.

My experience is that the time signature of bass notes is more important than the amplitude (Of course, taming 5dB peaks makes an audible difference). So to get back to objective data, a waterfall-type of a plot and an analysis of the first 100ms is important.
Ported designs sound different from closed. Location of subs change the time signature. PSI AVAA has a nice effect as well.

 

[terryforsythe]

There is no way I'm even close to an experienced enough listener to be able to tell apart such a marginal difference in the frequency response, so I've generally been guiding my placement and EQ decisions by measuring and matching the Harman curve as closely as I can.

Looking at the two graphs, specifically the difference in bass between 35-65 Hz, the lower bass output with the ports left unplugged looks to me like there is some phasing mismatch between the sub and speakers. Since the bass comes up with the ports plugged, the phasing probably is better. So, that may be the better setup.

Also, listen for the bass impact/tightness/dynamics. With my speakers it improved with the ports plugged when using a subwoofer.

 

[terryforsythe]

Nope,120hz is stratosphere for subs at a distance from mains.
Have a look at the studies here:

Bass and subwoofers

This is the second in a series of follow-up posts to https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-of-lokki-bech-toole-et-al.27540/#post-950580, this time focussing on bass perception with a brief digression on subwoofers, since there's relevance to (reproduction of) concert hall acoustics. I’ve...

www.audiosciencereview.com

120 Hz might present a small issue if running 2 or more subs spaced well away from the speakers, but should not be an issue with one sub, as is the case with the OP. From the thread to which you posted the link:

"The author concludes that, based on the crossover frequency threshold values, there is little directional information contained in the sound signal below 200Hz, and none at all, below 100Hz. " Borenius 1985.

"At VDT by a simple show of hands, nearly all of approx. 40 attendees reported at 100Hz perceiving no “swirling motion” in monaural, but a definite “impression of motion” in stereo." Miller 2005. NOTE: Since the OP is using a single sub, the sub is outputting in mono (the mono signal is a combination of the stereo signals).

“I have found before that putting subwoofers that augment frequencies between 30 and 150°Hz at the sides of the listening position can solve spatial problems in many rooms!” Griesinger 2018

“Below 40Hz it's not as much of an issue, but between 40 and 90Hz, yes, there is "stereo content" possible in a good venue with a good recording." https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s-using-subwoofers.11034/page-29#post-1757805

I'll throw in my subjective experience. I have a single subwoofer crossed over at 100 Hz using a 48 dB/Octave slope. I do not detect its location when playing music, ever. Everything I hear sounds like it is in the soundstage presented by the speakers.

 

[Digital_Thor]

I would address the problem differently.

1. What's the budget?
2. Requirement for looks, size and complexity of the sub?
3. Can you draw your room with your MLP and placement of the system?

Correctly setup, you can do with way cheaper subwoofers. So you could actually get two subwoofers and dedicated DSP to adjust and filter them. Then you won't have to pay some brand a lot of money to build in the DSP - when you can get one for less than a 100$
I can't fully figure out if it can adjust two individual subwoofers, or it just has one channel divided in two - modern manuals are sadly often crap

https://www.daytonaudio.com/product/1664/dsp-lf-low-frequency-dsp-controller

But you also need to figure out whether you want subwoofers close to the speakers or out in the room. Close to the speakers, will ease up integration somewhat. But moving them out in the room, will help fill out dips, since they are now in a space, where they can potentially have a different response than your mains - which apparently are the ones with the suck-out.

Ported speakers can be tricky with subwoofers, since you have a phase-shift when the response transition from the woofer to the port. So I would definitely plug that port and get a smoother roll-off on the mains, which will also ease up on the integration with subwoofers - no matter where they are placed.

Hey... no one said it would be easy

 

[krabapple]

Or maybe I'm doing something wrong. Has anyone else had a similar experience with subwoofers?

Did you do anything to optimize subwoofer placement?

 

[ZolaIII]

My experience is that the time signature of bass notes is more important than the amplitude (Of course, taming 5dB peaks makes an audible difference). So to get back to objective data, a waterfall-type of a plot and an analysis of the first 100ms is important.
Ported designs sound different from closed. Location of subs change the time signature. PSI AVAA has a nice effect as well.

Time domain is important and so is isolation from floor but I wouldn't go that far to say it's more important than actual FR. You don't want to kill completely the resonances in waterfal plots but to get them down and even with other ones or you would end up with headphones. Most important is the crossover and smooth transition area and that they slope smooth on each other and as close to math model as possible. What order it is determines room decay. Again it's better to start making less problems than have to deal with them later especially if they are close to impossible to deal with so close enclosure sub's and plugged port's help and also 10" sub's help keap time domain and decay time better and all together result in better clarity index. Natural boundaries are of course room size especially length as after all that's just another box.

 

[krabapple]

Nope,120hz is stratosphere for subs at a distance from mains.
Have a look at the studies here:

Bass and subwoofers

This is the second in a series of follow-up posts to https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-of-lokki-bech-toole-et-al.27540/#post-950580, this time focussing on bass perception with a brief digression on subwoofers, since there's relevance to (reproduction of) concert hall acoustics. I’ve...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Yet, FWIW, Dolby and DTS 5.1 spec both allow 120Hz bandwith content in their LFE channel.

And, whether it's there due to design or the engineer simply not caring, I've observed more than a few examples of *full range* content in the LFE channel when analyzing lossless multichannel music releases with tools like Audition or Audacity.

 

[JohnnyAudio]

I don't care for subs either but couldn't live without them.

 

[Ron Texas]

The dip between 100Hz and 200Hz is the problem. I believe that without the lower harmonics the sub bass is just lost. (don't quote me)

 

[ehabheikal]

120 Hz might present a small issue if running 2 or more subs spaced well away from the speakers, but should not be an issue with one sub, as is the case with the OP. From the thread to which you posted the link:

"The author concludes that, based on the crossover frequency threshold values, there is little directional information contained in the sound signal below 200Hz, and none at all, below 100Hz. " Borenius 1985.

"At VDT by a simple show of hands, nearly all of approx. 40 attendees reported at 100Hz perceiving no “swirling motion” in monaural, but a definite “impression of motion” in stereo." Miller 2005. NOTE: Since the OP is using a single sub, the sub is outputting in mono (the mono signal is a combination of the stereo signals).

“I have found before that putting subwoofers that augment frequencies between 30 and 150°Hz at the sides of the listening position can solve spatial problems in many rooms!” Griesinger 2018

“Below 40Hz it's not as much of an issue, but between 40 and 90Hz, yes, there is "stereo content" possible in a good venue with a good recording." https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s-using-subwoofers.11034/page-29#post-1757805

I'll throw in my subjective experience. I have a single subwoofer crossed over at 100 Hz using a 48 dB/Octave slope. I do not detect its location when playing music, ever. Everything I hear sounds like it is in the soundstage presented by the speakers.

me even at 120hz i can not point to the main speakers never the sub

 

[Sokel]

Have you tried different filter slopes? I assume there must be a difference between 12 and 48 dB/oct in your example. If not for the more drastic phase shifts of the 48 filter

120 Hz might present a small issue if running 2 or more subs spaced well away from the speakers, but should not be an issue with one sub, as is the case with the OP. From the thread to which you posted the link:

"The author concludes that, based on the crossover frequency threshold values, there is little directional information contained in the sound signal below 200Hz, and none at all, below 100Hz. " Borenius 1985.

"At VDT by a simple show of hands, nearly all of approx. 40 attendees reported at 100Hz perceiving no “swirling motion” in monaural, but a definite “impression of motion” in stereo." Miller 2005. NOTE: Since the OP is using a single sub, the sub is outputting in mono (the mono signal is a combination of the stereo signals).

“I have found before that putting subwoofers that augment frequencies between 30 and 150°Hz at the sides of the listening position can solve spatial problems in many rooms!” Griesinger 2018

“Below 40Hz it's not as much of an issue, but between 40 and 90Hz, yes, there is "stereo content" possible in a good venue with a good recording." https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s-using-subwoofers.11034/page-29#post-1757805

I'll throw in my subjective experience. I have a single subwoofer crossed over at 100 Hz using a 48 dB/Octave slope. I do not detect its location when playing music, ever. Everything I hear sounds like it is in the soundstage presented by the speakers.

Problem (along with localization) is that in some genres voices can go low,there is strong stereo bass content,etc.
Agreed that in some others that can not be as evident but every listener of classical,opera even jazz,etc who has live references first look at two things:dymamic range and right proportions of instruments and voices,specially the later.

Totally different than listen to movie content,MC or simple electronic.
But,isn't it nicer for a rig to reproduce anything one likes?I mean reproducing the "difficult" stuff is a good indicator that will also reproduce the rest just as well (again,I'm not talking explosions and MC and HT stuff) .

If mains can go low (30's) with authority subs can be nice to address room issues down low up to 70-80Hz or so.But you can't turn a small 2-way to a 3-way with subs far apart,many have tried over the years,just have a look at diyaudio and the struggles of such endeavor.

 

[dshreter]

The dip between 100Hz and 200Hz is the problem. I believe that without the lower harmonics the sub bass is just lost. (don't quote me)

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Most kinds of rock and pop stop putting out notes at 40 hz, so they are not all that much improved by the addition of a sub. If that's what's in your record collection, maybe you don't need one.

OTOH, the sub you selected, the SVS SB 3000 Micro, is not really a sub--it's a detached, powered woofer. It won't play anything below 40 hz much louder than 85 db. A real sub like a SVS SB 2000 will play 25 hz at 100 db in contrast. So 30 hz at 75 db might not seem all that awesome to you. It would not to me either.

Finally, if you play Classical, EDM, Hip Hop or cinema over the system, you will find the improvement that a sub lends to be substantial. But you would probably want something like a big boy SB 3000 if you wanted to listen to Big Boi 'Kill Jill".

 

[terryforsythe]

If mains can go low (30's) with authority subs can be nice to address room issues down low up to 70-80Hz or so.But you can't turn a small 2-way to a 3-way with subs far apart,many have tried over the years,just have a look at diyaudio and the struggles of such endeavor.

I have two bookshelf speakers (heavily modified Elac UBR62s) with a subwoofer crossed over at 100 Hz, 48 dB/Octave. The sub is not too far from the speakers, a little less than 2m to the right of the right speaker. If somebody were to be blindfolded and brought in to listen, they would not know there was a separate subwoofer. Even if they were told there was one, they would not be able to pinpoint its location. All of the music appears to be in the speakers' sound stage, which is quite large.