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Stereophile's Jim Austin disagrees w Atkinson; says tubes have something that can't be measured

computer-audiophile

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And now I’m going to suggest the “opposite case”. Let’s assume that there is, say, 1% of the male population that differ from the standard case, that is that even blind tested they don’t prefer low distortion sound. In the US that number would be around one million. Now, more controversially I could claim that five percent are driven by their preference not matching the norm, and have the income, to become hardcore subjective audiophiles. That gives us 50,000 people to be genuinely interested in the perfection chase: quite enough to form the core of current audiophilia.

I still don’t buy the lifetime chase, but is there something to this idea?
Do you have any practical experience, i.e. are you familiar with tube amplifiers, do you own any? Which are or were these? Or is it about general considerations about it?
Practical reports discussing specific setups are my favorite. I don't mind controversy either. Preferably with your own photos to illustrate the situation. Then one can often see what it's all about.
 
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teched58

teched58

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One thing nobody has mentioned, which is a recent and IMO serious impediment to tubes, is the high cost of electricity. Here in NYC, Con Edison bills are out of control and people do anything they can to reduce consumption.

In the summer, air conditioning is now a luxury in that people can no longer afford to run the A/C for long periods of time, unless you want to be looking at a $600 bill.

Running power hungry tube amps, much as I've enjoyed them occasionally -- I have a Fisher Allegro console (which is famous as President Kennedy's sound system) -- is not something I do anymore. (Instead, I stare at my LED lightbulbs.)
 

computer-audiophile

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Wow, this is a great collectors item!

With the music system on my desktop that is switched on all day, I am also glad that there is a standby function with reduced power consumption and everything is designed in economical digital technology. My tube amplifiers and turntables aren't on that often, so that doesn't really matter.
 

Sam Spade

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"have something that can't be measured"

It is called imagination

I'm sure it can be measured and quantified. And if you put a musical fidelity nuvista tube amp, the matching transistor preamp and find a similar glass tube preamp, measure all three and do double blind testing we can get an answer.
 

egellings

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Gilbert Yeung, the man behind Blue Circle Audio, had a great sense of humor:
p3.jpg

Glowing Divine - Blue Circle Music Pumps and Purse
Now all you need to complete the square & factor it is to get that leg shaped table lamp to go with.
 

ddaudio

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Just looking at the first post and not much else....what else would he say to keep that sort of nonsense alive?
Well, Austin said this on his magazine's forum not so long ago:

If you want a journal that's about what physical effects electronics (and transducers) have on the air in a room, you can probably find one. But that is not what we do here. Stereophile is about experiencing music.

So, given that audio is, precisely, "physical effects" "on the air in a room", I'd like to know what additional ways of "experiencing music" he has found. It seems very selfish of him to keep such groundbreaking discoveries to himself.
 

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"If you want a journal that's about what physical effects electronics (and transducers) have on the air in a room, you can probably find one. But that is not what we do here." -Austin

Atkinson could not feel more alienated. Dear Mr Measurements: you are not aligned with our values. Please keep up the good work.

:facepalm:
 

Axo1989

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So, given that audio is, precisely, "physical effects" "on the air in a room", I'd like to know what additional ways of "experiencing music" he has found. It seems very selfish of him to keep such groundbreaking discoveries to himself.

If said air stopped just short of our pinnae, and didn't traverse the rest of our auditory system to reach our brains and affect our emotions and imagination via the usual pyscho-acoustics, you'd be spot on. I don't find so much value in Austin's philosophical musings personally, but I agree there's more to enjoying musical reproduction and fetishising gear than what happens to excited air molecules and simplified graphic approximations of same.

"If you want a journal that's about what physical effects electronics (and transducers) have on the air in a room, you can probably find one. But that is not what we do here." -Austin

Atkinson could not feel more alienated. Dear Mr Measurements: you are not aligned with our values. Please keep up the good work.

:facepalm:

I'd sure JA1 is coping with JA2's perspectives with rather less sense of alienation than @Newman projects. Stereophile provides objective measurements and experiential poetics, sometimes the inherent dialectics can be fascinating.
 

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Yes @Axo1989 I'm sure you are right about the JA's, too much common ground there. I was mainly alluding to the utter ridiculousness of it all.
 

Axo1989

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Yes @Axo1989 I'm sure you are right about the JA's, too much common ground there. I was mainly alluding to the utter ridiculousness of it all.

Ridiculousness aside (there's plenty of that) JA1 impresses me a lot, he is both knowledgable and super-chilled. I hope (perhaps vainly) I reach that age with similar grace.
 

ddaudio

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If said air stopped just short of our pinnae, and didn't traverse the rest of our auditory system to reach our brains and affect our emotions and imagination via the usual pyscho-acoustics, you'd be spot on. I don't find so much value in Austin's philosophical musings personally, but I agree there's more to enjoying musical reproduction and fetishising gear than what happens to excited air molecules and simplified graphic approximations of same.



I'd sure JA1 is coping with JA2's perspectives with rather less sense of alienation than @Newman projects. Stereophile provides objective measurements and experiential poetics, sometimes the inherent dialectics can be fascinating.
Maybe I should have been more specific: "the mechanism by which audio reaches our ears is, precisely..."
 

GXAlan

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I don't find so much value in Austin's philosophical musings personally, but I agree there's more to enjoying musical reproduction and fetishising gear than what happens to excited air molecules and simplified graphic approximations of same.

I think there is a balance.

Measurements are the single most valuable tool we have in this hobby for communicating about gear. I use the simple example of the universal truth that 100% of hobbyists from Amir to Danny would agree that channel balance should be as perfect as possible in a stereo system or that mains noise or ground loops should be avoided.

We can measure those things and there is no disageeement.

Where there is disagreement is ideal for the other stuff.

1) There is minimal disagreement about what transparency means. There is a lot of disagreement whether euphonic colorations exist or if it’s just sighted bias.

2) There are different preferences for dispersion.

3) A perfectly transparent amplifier should have zero crosstalk between channels. With a headphone it turns out that crosstalk can be preferred.

The fun is exploring what you enjoy and for many of us into science, exploring why we enjoy what we enjoy. The joy is taken away when debate turns into attack/argument.
 

IPunchCholla

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I don't find so much value in Austin's philosophical musings personally, but I agree there's more to enjoying musical reproduction and fetishising gear than what happens to excited air molecules and simplified graphic approximations of same.
Sure, but does Steroephile go into the science of the auditory portions of the brain? (Kinda an honest question as I have never read Stereophile). Do they go into the science behind the ear/brain interface? Plenty of work going on in both areas they could report on. There is plenty of work going on looking into how people learn to hear (as in how musicians listen and why, same for critics). There is plenty of work going on in the sociology of music as well. I remember reading about the role of music in wealth destruction ceremonies of urban South African subcultures recently. And then there is all of music education. The pedagogy of how to teach playing an instrument as well as the pedagogy of how to train people to listen to music are both taught. Music Theory. Music Appreciation.

It's not like science and the humanities has just thrown up their hands and gone "Music, There is just something there we'll never understand!". There numerous disciplines looking into it and trying to actually understand those impacts that make music such a major part of the human experience. I don't think "There is more to music than its reproduction." should get a pass, just because it is true. That truth doesn't remove it from scientific scrutiny.
 

GXAlan

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Sure, but does Steroephile go into the science of the auditory portions of the brain?
No, but would that increase or decrease readership?

Music Theory.
Speaking of music theory, this is one of the very best videos out there. If you have zero musical technical knowledge, it is definitely too technical. If you have a tiny bit of musical knowledge, you can pick up the sophistication of John Williams after watching this video. If you have a moderate amount of music knowledge…

 

Ilkless

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If said air stopped just short of our pinnae, and didn't traverse the rest of our auditory system to reach our brains and affect our emotions and imagination via the usual pyscho-acoustics, you'd be spot on. I don't find so much value in Austin's philosophical musings personally, but I agree there's more to enjoying musical reproduction and fetishising gear than what happens to excited air molecules and simplified graphic approximations of same.

I agree with you. IMHO, the issue lies more in the gear fetishists erroneously attributing the change in perception to a fundamental change in how air molecules are excited, rather than their interpretation of the same/similar excitation in different contexts.
 

Axo1989

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Maybe I should have been more specific: "the mechanism by which audio reaches our ears is, precisely..."

Hopefully I didn't just nit-pick. :)

Sure, but does Steroephile go into the science of the auditory portions of the brain? (Kinda an honest question as I have never read Stereophile). Do they go into the science behind the ear/brain interface? Plenty of work going on in both areas they could report on. There is plenty of work going on looking into how people learn to hear (as in how musicians listen and why, same for critics). There is plenty of work going on in the sociology of music as well. I remember reading about the role of music in wealth destruction ceremonies of urban South African subcultures recently. And then there is all of music education. The pedagogy of how to teach playing an instrument as well as the pedagogy of how to train people to listen to music are both taught. Music Theory. Music Appreciation.

It's not like science and the humanities has just thrown up their hands and gone "Music, There is just something there we'll never understand!". There numerous disciplines looking into it and trying to actually understand those impacts that make music such a major part of the human experience. I don't think "There is more to music than its reproduction." should get a pass, just because it is true. That truth doesn't remove it from scientific scrutiny.

They've done a few broader discursions iirc but I'd have to dig into my memory, so generally not so much. Would be very cool if they did more. I agree with you generally. But I was making the much narrower observation that I find their conventional discussion of subjective impressions of audio gear to be interesting and informative (depending on the writer and the subject devices). I don't find that so much in competitors that eschew measurement altogether, there's no reference point to ground the poetics to something more tangible.
 

ddaudio

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I suppose we should thank Mr Austin for saying the quiet part out loud: his statement confirms that he accepts that there are psychological as well as electro-acoustic aspects to musical reproduction and listening. He should go one step further and recognise that his own chosen role is far more in the former area than the latter. He doesn't though: he would rather attribute the transcendent, emotional feelings which music triggers in the wonderful, living, breathing human mind to "unmeasurable" qualities of a box of cold, dead electronics. That's "gear fetishism"!

I would never criticise someone for how they gain pleasure (I'm a smoker, how could I?) but examining the mechanisms by which pleasure is gained, and looking into which can be generalised and which must remain purely personal, is not criticism or attack.

We are right to point to the placebo effect when judging the results of sighted listening tests: it is a far simpler explanation than inventing stories about measurements not yet possible (or even about measurements which will never be possible!). It is also something that can be tested through blind testing.

But what if, having failed to distinguish between two components in a blind test, an individual still consistently prefers one of them in "normal" listening? In such a case, there is no shame at all in recognising that non-auditory psychological factors are at work, and yes, the music *actually does* sound better in the mind of the individual concerned. I was going to say this is no problem at all, but it can be - when snake oil salesmen and other fraudsters use the power of suggestion to take advantage of people.

Then there are the things that are measurably "lower fi" than others, but are nonetheless preferred in subjective review. If such a preference survives a blind test, are the measurements irrelevant or wrong? Of course not. What has been demonstrated in this case is a *personal preference* for certain distortions of the musical signal, which is fine, until such a subjective preference is generalised into statements that the component in question is objectively *better*.

@GXAlan mentions this above, that certain objectively inferior measurements can be preferred. Again, no problem, but these days it is likely to be far cheaper and more reliable to use DSP rather than struggle to put together a collection of differently-distorting components which even if successful would only ever really work for one person in a one particular room. I've never understood people who obsess over keeping things bit perfect in the digital domain and then "tune" the analogue signal with analogue components chosen for their ("euphonic") distortions.
 
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