Step Response: Does It Really Matter?

[audio2design]

If you can't show a revenue stream and not make it sound awful in a car, it's a tough sell to the labels. I think we are getting much closer to where handshaking with the playback system becomes ubiquitous and coupled with streaming dominance the need for unified stream delivery starts to go out the door. This excites the labels as they see easy differentiated (i.e. costs more) revenue streams. The big streamering platforms are desperate for differentiation. We can hope.

 

[bennybbbx]

Do you have any proof of that or even a good hypothetical reasoning? I didn't find one in your post to be honest. ITD is time differential of the same signal between two ears. That only requires consistency between the channels not absolute accuracy. Hence that does not even justify the requirement for perfect impulse response though I will accept that for channel consistency taking care of ITD frequencies from a time standpoint may be required.

We don't know all the inner workings of the auditory system, but we know a lot including what frequencies appear to be used to extract what information including timing. Given the lack of correlation between impulse response and subjective impressions we probably should be working to understand why that is as opposed to assuming it is wrong or at least wholly wrong.

if you think the stereo width of a speaker can not see on step response then just tell me on which measure result can see this better or best ?. all what really hear can measure thats physical fact. In speaker tests often is tell that it have good or bad stereo width. i choose the JBL 104 because in tests is written that stereo width is good also at 50 cm distance. so i give it a try. in germany is 30 days moneyback. so if they really sound not better as that what i have, i sent them back early. the JBL 104 is test on this page too. it have a large 7 khz gap. the 104 BTW i have, have this 7 khz gap not, but a small 10 khz gap. I post FR in the 104 test. it seem the have update it. i have also try measure and put hands on grill to see if it is maybe the grill. but no diffrence

https://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio-webdav/handbook/Binaural_Hearing.html

here you can read which delay cause which angle . there is a example wav in the link do you hear ITD ? . Is from university of glasgow in the diagram and there is list from which books it is. I mean because 0.1 ms delay i can good hear position change, there need a woofer speaker(on 2 way systems) that have fast rise and fall time to produce stereo good. you can do multibursts there is a example wav in the link do you hear ITD ? . if so then you can test speakers with step response and stereo width what you hear. if the speakers with slow step response have same stereo width as the speakers with fast step response. in this video is another ITD hear test

 

[j_j]

If you can't show a revenue stream and not make it sound awful in a car, it's a tough sell to the labels. I think we are getting much closer to where handshaking with the playback system becomes ubiquitous and coupled with streaming dominance the need for unified stream delivery starts to go out the door. This excites the labels as they see easy differentiated (i.e. costs more) revenue streams. The big streamering platforms are desperate for differentiation. We can hope.

Well, we create a stream that you can tailor to your own listening situation. I think that's the future of audio. In a car, squashed flat. In a quite building in headphones, high dynamic range (for the appropriate material). Include ITD/ILD/Environment/Coherence information properly for the final rendering.

 

[egellings]

Band limited audio signals don't have such severely high leading edge risetimes, so I think testing for that is a waste of effort as far as listening goes.

 

[audio2design]

Well, we create a stream that you can tailor to your own listening situation. I think that's the future of audio. In a car, squashed flat. In a quite building in headphones, high dynamic range (for the appropriate material). Include ITD/ILD/Environment/Coherence information properly for the final rendering.

I meant in general. Cheering for your new venture's success as there is too much stagnation in audio though some light now with Apple and Amazon looking at multichannel in order to differentiate and drive some new adopters. We have had success going right to the artists who like the idea of creating premium direct content with "generic" content for the bulk streamers.

 

[j_j]

Band limited audio signals don't have such severely high leading edge risetimes, so I think testing for that is a waste of effort as far as listening goes.

Remember that you have to convolve the cochlear filter impulse response with everything else in order to estimate the question of "does this actually matter". Convolving an even narrower-band signal with an audio bandwidth does not speed things up, of course.

However, the measured ITD's come in remarkably close to the calculated cochlear impulse responses at higher frequencies, considering the 30dB dynamic range of the inner hair cells (which, do not forget, are gain-ranged by compression mechanisms to cover about 90dB, give or take).

 

[audio2design]

Strange the things that cause us to go off on tangents. I had some things stuck in my head w.r.t. ultrasonic masking w.r.t brain resonance (something a colleague said recently), and some thoughts on basil membrane response and remembered some similarities but never delved much. j_j, your post triggered an un-followed tangent


https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1005015

https://www.tinnitusjournal.com/art...umans-applications-for-tinnitus-treatment.pdf

 

[bennybbbx]

to see if a mid-woofer can produce the transients at correct time with time error < as 0.05 ms to produce ITD correct it is of course better when can measure only the woofer without crossover. then when this system go over 12 khz -5 db then can assume it is fast enough for ITD reproduce. But this is not possible without open and connect to a amp. so testers can not do it. the problem of slow bass/mid speakers is only hear from people that can hear ITD. its really strange wy very few answer if they can hear ITD or not, or which diffrence they hear in this examples i post. intresting to know how other people hear a delay between left and right speaker of 0.5 ms. in stereo triangle is the reverb and rimshot hear as it come very near the right speaker(when speaker is fast) or headphone.

 

[audio2design]

. a delay of 0.1 ms is 10 khz and for ITD 10 degree. and mostly on 2 way speakers the bass woofers only can do 6 khz and then level go much down. then it is clear that 2 speakers that work with the independent left right signal never can reach the peak of the wav at correct time 0.1 ms time diffrence between left and right speaker.

There is no correlation between interchannel delay, which is a factor of phase, and frequency response. A delay of 0.1msec between channels is not 10Khz. That correlation does not exist. Assuming the same signal to both speakers, the time difference between two speakers designed the same is primarily a factor of manufacturing tolerance of the speakers.

You don't need 10khz to measure 0.1msec time differences either.

 

[bennybbbx]

There is no correlation between interchannel delay, which is a factor of phase, and frequency response. A delay of 0.1msec between channels is not 10Khz. That correlation does not exist. Assuming the same signal to both speakers, the time difference between two speakers designed the same is primarily a factor of manufacturing tolerance of the speakers.

You don't need 10khz to measure 0.1msec time differences either.

I mean the period time of 10 khz is 0.1 ms. see here the online period to frequency calculator. the https://www.sensorsone.com/period-to-frequency-calculator/

ITD is the delay between channels of a transient. it should be clear when a woofer-mid speaker can only reach 6 khz -3 db(which many speakers do) that this speaker is not able to produce a ITD of the transient of 0.1 ms correct between speaker correct.

Wy you not answer my question if you can hear ITD ?. if you can hear ITD you should notice that the signal sound with 0.1 ms delay on left side from same position as when the level of left speaker is aound 20% right speaker 80%. thats alot. also a slow wofer/mid speaker can a 6 khz continues sine better produce as a transient at a correct time. 6 khz in period time is 0.16 ms. so how should this speaker produce good a time of 0.1 ms or even less ?

that the ITD depend on transient time diffrence between left and right channel can easy hear when use a sound that fade in slowly. it ist much harder to detect its position

 

[audio2design]

I mean the period time of 10 khz is 0.1 ms. see here the online period to frequency calculator. the https://www.sensorsone.com/period-to-frequency-calculator/

ITD is the delay between channels of a transient. it should be clear when a woofer-mid speaker can only reach 6 khz -3 db(which many speakers do) that this speaker is not able to produce a ITD of the transient of 0.1 ms correct between speaker correct.

No, not correct at all.

Wy you not answer my question if you can hear ITD ?. if you can hear ITD you should notice that the signal sound with 0.1 ms delay on left side from same position as when the level of left speaker is aound 20% right speaker 80%. thats alot. also a slow wofer/mid speaker can a 6 khz continues sine better produce as a transient at a correct time. 6 khz in period time is 0.16 ms. so how should this speaker produce good a time of 0.1 ms or even less ?

Of course I can hear ITD, everyone can heard ITD (to my knowledge). Well hear is not accurate, I perceive location based on it is more accurate.

that the ITD depend on transient time diffrence between left and right channel can easy hear when use a sound that fade in slowly. it ist much harder to detect its position

Rise times ~1msec (and even larger) are sufficient to maximize positional accuracy from the tests / literature I am aware of. I have no idea what you define as "fade in slowly"

I think there is a fundamental hole in your understanding w.r.t. what "generates" the delay between the two ears in a playback system causing you to make erroneous conclusions. You don't need "fast" to have an accurate time delay between two channels, you need consistent.

 

[bennybbbx]

No, not correct at all.

do you want say that 10 khz have not period time of 0.1 ms ?. which period time it have then ?

Rise times ~1msec (and even larger) are sufficient to maximize positional accuracy from the tests / literature I am aware of. I have no idea what you define as "fade in slowly"

I mean with fade in slowly rise time of more than 50 ms. transient shaper plugins for examples use a default value around 20 ms which detect if it is register as transient(attack) or sustain.

see here the wav display. it is from brothers in arms dire straits, so its a real world example of a famous song. you can see that the left and right speakers play much diffrent at same time.

and a slow woofer-mid have much rise and fall time to reach a level. so all in all it result in unprecise stereo. because low level diffrences the slow speaker reach much faster as the high level diffrences

in electronic this slower reaching a level is called the slew rate. here it is explain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slew_rate#/media/File:Slew-rate.svg

the woofer mid get only frequences depend on crossover, if people did not hear ITD it doesnt matter, but for people that hear ITD this peaks that ITD hear need, must have for mid range frequencies a precions of better as 0.1 ms

EDIT: here is another view of the above zoom

in. so it is clear the large changes must the woofer do.

 

[audio2design]

@bennybbbx , you seem unable to conceptualize this in the frequency domain and hence you are getting hung up on the full envelope as opposed to a frequency limited envelope. You also assume there is any inter-channel time information in this sample from Brother's in Arms. If you are posting graphs, please include the scale.

 

[bennybbbx]

@bennybbbx , you seem unable to conceptualize this in the frequency domain and hence you are getting hung up on the full envelope as opposed to a frequency limited envelope. You also assume there is any inter-channel time information in this sample from Brother's in Arms. If you are posting graphs, please include the scale.

i have done a lowpass 24 db 2 khz for this waveform post. many 2 way speaker have higher crossover freq and 18 or 12 db crossover. so the waves i show is good case situaton. the numbers are sample positions every 10 samples is a small line. 1 ms(1 khz) are around 44 samples. 0.1 ms(10 khz) are around 4.4 samples. so did you really think a speaker that can only produce good 6 khz can produce correct peaks on both channels with diffrent left right input that are on both channels correct and not differ more than 0.05 ms ?

the interchannel time information is also create from the reverb. reverb is create(when simulate it) with many diffrent small delay times. it create out of a original transient more transients with diffrent delays for right and left speaker. the brain can create out of this a room size feeling. but with slow speakers it sound dry and less concert hall hear.

you still not answer the question, which measure result show good stereo width of speaker. directivity is not because 1 way speaker have less directivity and also s simple livingroom can not produce the reverb of a concert hall, so high directivity can not help to get good concert space sound.

 

[audio2design]

I have no idea what your question is. You can either get out what is in the music or you can create something artificial or something in between, so the comment about directivity is a bit moot, especially since the ambience of the hall is captured at some level in the recording already. It you add reflections you may get a sense or space but it is artificial and may be good or bad. If you are sitting in the best seats, i.e. Orchestra, closer to the front, the directed sound dominates though bass will reverb which is not as directional.

50 usec, yes, but again, all that is needed is some level of consistency and it does not even need to be perfect as small differences are equivalent to moving the speaker a bit. Consistency in the crossover region is a bit more difficult depending on the frequency placement, but I am mainly concerned at ITD dominant frequencies assuming ITD data in the music (rare).

 

[NTK]

Regarding the "time resolution of digital samples", please take a look at this thread.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/time-resolution-of-redbook-16-44-pcm.22102/

 

[audio2design]

Regarding the "time resolution of digital samples", please take a look at this thread.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/time-resolution-of-redbook-16-44-pcm.22102/

This has nothing to do with time resolution of digital samples, but yes, the analogy is effective and came to my mind as well.

 

[j_j]

Benny. Please get yourself a copy of Fourier Analysis by Norman Morrison, and read a few chapters.

Until then, you're not going to understand the actual issues at hand. Sorry, but I don't even know where to start with all this flailing about.

 

[bennybbbx]

I have no idea what your question is. You can either get out what is in the music or you can create something artificial or something in between, so the comment about directivity is a bit moot, especially since the ambience of the hall is captured at some level in the recording already. It you add reflections you may get a sense or space but it is artificial and may be good or bad. If you are sitting in the best seats, i.e. Orchestra, closer to the front, the directed sound dominates though bass will reverb which is not as directional.

50 usec, yes, but again, all that is needed is some level of consistency and it does not even need to be perfect as small differences are equivalent to moving the speaker a bit. Consistency in the crossover region is a bit more difficult depending on the frequency placement, but I am mainly concerned at ITD dominant frequencies assuming ITD data in the music (rare).

in my older post i write more concret, and i enhance it more. My question is. If you think the attack and decay speed of a speaker can not see on step response then just tell me on which measure result can see this better or best ?. all what really hear can measure thats physical fact. In speaker tests often is tell that it have good or bad stereo width. and my tests confirm always fastest step response have best stereo width.

when move the speaker a bit the diffrence stay always the same. maybe ears can correect better. but i notice it give best sound for me when i measure the delay of speaker and correct it in dsp. in carma 4 (freeware) it is very easy and fast to measure delay of speakers. when switch to time and click on right speaker it show the delay of right speaker in samples. delay of left speaker is always set to 0.

look at the waveform i post from dire straits brothers in arms. i now add a box(so lines are exact in angle, so can see better which level it should play on right channel and on left channel at same time. this is the 2 khz lowpass filtered version

there can see on left channel is a part the left speaker must not move much, but the right speaker need move much more. so there is no consistency. I can see on whole waveform of songs that left and right is much diffrent.

if in a speaker the phase can produce exact upto 50 usec period time this speaker is also able to produce frequency of 20 khz. which a slow mid woofer can not doi. t should be clear that a big bass mid woofer that can reach only 6 khz -3 db (0.16 ms period time) have problems to reach the correct level good in period time lower as 0.16 ms which is need for good ITD stereo even if frequency is below 2 khz. because left and right speaker play diffrent signal the time to reach a level variate much more as on a fast speaker.

when hear diffrence in time at lower as 0.05 ms between left and right channel at frequency below 2 khz need a speaker that can produce it correct.

 

[audio2design]

@bennybbbx , you confuse the most basic concept of phase shift and confuse this with speed. Time delay(phase) is not speed. It is time delay. I suggest doing a lot more reading before trying to attack this subject. You are going around in a circle. Sorry but I don't have time for the necessary lesson.