Stanford University audio reference selection vinyl player

[Old Grey Punk]

I'm not sure I understand the debate here. Stanford University wanted to invest in the most effective mechanism to digitise records which contain valuable and / or historic recordings, and it turns out the best method for doing this is to use (what is in their opinion) the most precise high quality 'record player'. A cursory glance around the web shows that despite numerous attempts, no other device currently available would get close to the accuracy of the Helix in terms of record playback.

 

[antcollinet]

I'm not sure I understand the debate here. Stanford University wanted to invest in the most effective mechanism to digitise records which contain valuable and / or historic recordings, and it turns out the best method for doing this is to use (what is in their opinion) the most precise high quality 'record player'. A cursory glance around the web shows that despite numerous attempts, no other device currently available would get close to the accuracy of the Helix in terms of record playback.

People were questioning whether that is in fact the case. The "emotional cartridge" statement does open the door for discussion here.

The point of the debate is to discuss the validity of those questions.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I don't mind them choosing a record player but they must be clear about the objective metrics. This is Stanford forking University after all, their actions, choices carry weight. Thus for the purpose of what they want to do:
What are the metrics/criterion for choosing this particular record player over the others?
What were the metrics? For choosing a record player, for the purpose of preserving our past?
Were they published?

It is not the first time that an university dabbles into High End Audio. What is scary is that in many of the cases there is no appeal to Science, subjectivity rules in many of these. ! Many reads like a marketing brochures for the High End Audio industry. e.g. :
SEWANEE The University Of The South

This gems from their webpage. Emphasis is mine

We play our CDs, high quality digital files, and MQA streaming files through a PS Audio Direct Stream DAC. Both Stereophile and Absolute Sound’s coveted "Product Of The Year," this beautifully designed DAC offers capabilities beyond what we could have dreamed of several years ago. PS Audio's website explains: "Handwritten, discrete, perfection based conversion that uncovers all the missing information hiding in your digital audio media for all these years. CD’s, downloads, high-resolution PCM or DSD based media are expertly upsampled in the DirectStream to twenty times DSD rate and output as pure analog directly into your amplifier or preamplifier." The DirectStream uses a pure DSD single-bit approach when handling PCM as well as DSD media.

This from a school of higher education... Seriously??!!! Just taking a blurb from a manufacturer marketing output... This to me is almost criminal at least dangerous. This is not innocuous.

It behooves to a school of higher learning to go an objective way, that of critical thinking, that of Science for choosing an equipment that purport to preserve our past. I haven't researched (yet) why Stanford chose this particular setup. I hope that Science was the basis.

Peace

 

[Mart68]

Hi

I don't mind them choosing a record player but they must be clear about the objective metrics. This is Stanford forking University after all, their actions, choices carry weight. Thus for the purpose of what they want to do:
What are the metrics/criterion for choosing this particular record player over the others?
What were the metrics? For choosing a record player, for the purpose of preserving our past?
Were they published?

It is not the first time that an university dabbles into High End Audio. What is scary is that in many of the cases there is no appeal to Science, subjectivity rules in many of these. ! Many reads like a marketing brochures for the High End Audio industry. e.g. :
SEWANEE The University Of The South

This gems from their webpage. Emphasis is mine


This from a school of higher education... Seriously??!!! Just taking a blurb from a manufacturer marketing output... This to me is almost criminal at least dangerous. This is not innocuous.

It behooves to a school of higher learning to go an objective way, that of critical thinking, that of Science for choosing an equipment that purport to preserve our past. I haven't researched (yet) why Stanford chose this particular setup. I hope that Science was the basis.

Peace

Yes that is shocking, using a DAC that can barely manage 13 bits resolution because it is so noisy. I see they also use a Fraudioquest Jitterbug...

It is just a listening library though, they don't seem to be using this equipment for research. Looks like they just bought a high-end magazine, read it cover to cover, and then spent someone else's money on (mostly) expensive tat. You'd think a University would do some proper research first, sign of the times I guess.

 

[thewas]

This from a school of higher education... Seriously??!!! Just taking a blurb from a manufacturer marketing output... This to me is almost criminal at least dangerous. This is not innocuous.

If the higher education is financed (even partially) by the public it is actually criminal.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Boy am I glad I went to a different engineering school so I don’t have to feel ashamed now
(Let me call them to make sure it stays that way )

 

[fpitas]

Hi

I don't mind them choosing a record player but they must be clear about the objective metrics. This is Stanford forking University after all, their actions, choices carry weight. Thus for the purpose of what they want to do:
What are the metrics/criterion for choosing this particular record player over the others?
What were the metrics? For choosing a record player, for the purpose of preserving our past?
Were they published?

It is not the first time that an university dabbles into High End Audio. What is scary is that in many of the cases there is no appeal to Science, subjectivity rules in many of these. ! Many reads like a marketing brochures for the High End Audio industry. e.g. :
SEWANEE The University Of The South

This gems from their webpage. Emphasis is mine


This from a school of higher education... Seriously??!!! Just taking a blurb from a manufacturer marketing output... This to me is almost criminal at least dangerous. This is not innocuous.

It behooves to a school of higher learning to go an objective way, that of critical thinking, that of Science for choosing an equipment that purport to preserve our past. I haven't researched (yet) why Stanford chose this particular setup. I hope that Science was the basis.

Peace

Probably some starry-eyed grad student picked out that crap. He talked the talk and walked the walk, so everybody assumed he knew all about it. I doubt they have professors there that know anything about audio electronics. Or much less, care.

 

[antcollinet]

We should all bear in mind:

adopted by Stanford University as its audio reference to analyse vintage recordings from the Smithsonian archive

Selection of kit here has most likely been carried out by archivists - not engineers. No less likely to be taken in by the current state of the audio market than your average punter on the street.

 

[Tom C]

So, begs the question: which turntable does the Smithsonian use to digitize its archive? And why not simply carry out any investigations on the digitized copy?
Maybe it’s a misconception, but I thought direct drive had better speed stability than belt drive. And feed back systems that sense speed variations and then try to correct for them fail, because by the time the correction is applied, the conditions have changed, and the correction is no longer appropriate. Easy enough to measure. I’d be surprised if the data doesn’t already exist.
In the end, the truth, I suspect, is that all of the hand wringing and pursuit of perfection is for naught, as beyond a point, the audible differences are negligible.

 

[fpitas]

So, begs the question: which turntable does the Smithsonian use to digitize its archive? And why not simply carry out any investigations on the digitized copy?
Maybe it’s a misconception, but I thought direct drive had better speed stability than belt drive. And feed back systems that sense speed variations and then try to correct for them fail, because by the time the correction is applied, the conditions have changed, and the correction is no longer appropriate. Easy enough to measure. I’d be surprised if the data doesn’t already exist.
In the end, the truth, I suspect, is that all of the hand wringing and pursuit of perfection is for naught, as beyond a point, the audible differences are negligible.

I deeply suspect some audiophile simply wanted to play with "high end" stuff.

 

[antcollinet]

So, begs the question: which turntable does the Smithsonian use to digitize its archive? And why not simply carry out any investigations on the digitized copy?
Maybe it’s a misconception, but I thought direct drive had better speed stability than belt drive. And feed back systems that sense speed variations and then try to correct for them fail, because by the time the correction is applied, the conditions have changed, and the correction is no longer appropriate. Easy enough to measure. I’d be surprised if the data doesn’t already exist.
In the end, the truth, I suspect, is that all of the hand wringing and pursuit of perfection is for naught, as beyond a point, the audible differences are negligible.

I think the point is that the archive (at least relevant here) is physical media.

 

[Avp1]

So we can read an analog record with a laser. Which means we can, for instance, build the laser and everything around it to do so.

To find out that dirt is the final showstopper?

Nah.

To recognize that this is dirt and not part of record, you need even higher resolution. If optics is good it is likely possible to make AI that finds and ignores dirt caught in the spotlight.

 

[fpitas]

Right off hand, the laser turntable could have a "stylus" made of a soft material whose only purpose is to prepare the groove.

 

[Rednaxela]

Or maybe there are other ways to get rid of the dirt? Chemically perhaps?

 

[MoreWatts]

Right off hand, the laser turntable could have a "stylus" made of a soft material whose only purpose is to prepare the groove.

Pickering Dustamatic:

Today's artist & album recommendation.

 

[Avp1]

View attachment 257484

Today's artist & album recommendation.

This will not get dirt out of groove. Site of dirt particles is 1um or less.

 

[Timcognito]

A laser sees every spec of dirt no matter how small or light - and "plays" it as though it is part of the actual music.

Tony, you need to play your LPs more, the stylis does the same thing in very annoying way. Wonder what Stanford use to clean the records

 

[Tom C]

View attachment 257484

Pickering Dustamatic:

View attachment 257678

Today's artist & album recommendation.

Looks to me like slamming the barn door shut after the horses have escaped.

 

[dualazmak]

Tony, you need to play your LPs more, the stylis does the same thing in very annoying way.

I essentially agree.

For long-term stored old LPs, I occasionally intensively "wash" them with kitchen detergent of neutral pH using fine brush. After complete drying up, my final clean-up is real-time stylis tracing (scratch?) in 86 rpm (!) for several times in rather heavy cartridge pressure.

 

[Holmz]

If the higher education is financed (even partially) by the public it is actually criminal.

Good gawd man…
Who do you want it financed by?

And what is the crime exactly?