Sound Town ST-UPDM4C (4 Channel Pro Amp)

[PeteL]

Your message was received clearly from the start. No one suggested you said something else. But can others be allowed to have another opinion please.

Sure, but in the case you refer to, I was trying to tell H-713 that I agreed with him, that I had the same opinion, on the subject he was putting forward, which is a different discussion than the oneI had with you, so the "can other have another opinion" suggest that it was not "clear from the start" ? Or maybe it is your opinion then that is not clear? Maybe I do not get, because You seamed to agree when someone said that Professional written on a product is a red flag, but then you seem to suggest that Pro on a product means a high fidelity device. Maybe the problem is not the opinion but the clarity. My opinion is that it's neither a red flag or a seal of quality but indicating the sales channel.

 

[Xyrium]

Schiit is less dorky sounding than Sound Town though... At least they tried to be creative with the name "Schiit". There's no play on words, or clever (not really, but still) spelling or anything in "Sound Town".

So true...it's almost like they're daring you to buy it.

 

[Geert]

Maybe I do not get, because You seamed to agree when someone said that Professional written on a product is a red flag, but then you seem to suggest that Pro on a product means a high fidelity device. Maybe the problem is not the opinion but the clarity.

Often products get label as pro because they have nothing else to show for, hence the red flag. In pro audio products that really deliver usually don't carry that label, their qualities speak for themselves. The product being tested here is the best example of this; a pro label but a complete piece of junk.

Personally I have certain expectations from a product that's marketed as pro, being it via a label on the product or otherwise. These expectations go further than fidelity only, I already mentioned reliability and the capacity to perform according to specs. When I have a customer asking to rent an amp that can deliver 900W I don't want to send him home with one that only delivers 280W, it would ruin my business.

Am I completely delusional with relating pro to specific qualities? Don't think so given the response of other people.

One last example in a different area; a Samsung Pro series SSD. Why is it marketed as pro while it's widely sold directly to end users, while the non pro series are also sold to manufacturers? This is what the specs have to say: "Speeds are more consistent and sustained, even with heavy workloads and multiple task", "industry-leading endurance backed by a 5-year or up to 4,800 TBW limited warrant". So it's more reliable, and it can cope with a higher load.

 

[Trdat]

I'm pretty confident I got the Chinese copy of this but I only use it for two small 8inch subwoofers in pretty high end system.

Shall I throw it out or for subwoofer duty the harm is not so bad?

To note, I payed $150 not the quoted price above.

 

[Prana Ferox]

I'm pretty confident I got the Chinese copy of this but I only use it for two small 8inch subwoofers in pretty high end system.

Shall I throw it out or for subwoofer duty the harm is not so bad?

To note, I payed $150 not the quoted price above.

I wouldn't have bought it for this, but if you've already got it and the setup sounds fine to you, I wouldn't just toss it.

This amp is in a weird niche. There's a lot of demand for high-power 1U rackmount amps ('pro' or otherwise), questions about this come up a lot on music forums, and the major brands just don't have products here, presumably because the form factor doesn't allow for viable cooling (racks can be pretty inhospitable places.) The last vaguely credible products here are the various Stewart World amps that are long out of production. So if someone filters their search for new 1U rackmount power amps it just leaves various Chinese crud that's possibly just repackaged variants of this. Going to 2U opens up way more and better options, but some people just don't want to get a bigger rack.

 

[Geert]

This amp is in a weird niche. There's a lot of demand for high-power 1U rackmount amps ('pro' or otherwise), questions about this come up a lot on music forums, and the major brands just don't have products here, presumably because the form factor doesn't allow for viable cooling (racks can be pretty inhospitable places.)

Each time I've seen 1U amps stacked in a rack in pro use they had 1U spacing between them for cooling. So in the end they consume the same space as stacked 2U amps, while probably still having worse cooling.

 

[musicforcities]

Soundtown? I could not own something named that. Even it it was not junk

 

[musicforcities]

some people just don't want to get a bigger rack

That is what she said, I believe

 

[musicforcities]

Egads. Semantics over what pro means.

Caveat Emptor applies to pro or home use. This one is terrible.

But in terns of amps: amps designed for large room sound reinforcement and PA systems need power. Distortion—if not too bad—can be manageable and the sound is going to be eqed dsp etc. and the spaces are going to create more issues than a good pa amp will. It’s just an Entirely different use scenario.

Though in the late 70s and early 80s, phase linear and then Carver “magnetic field” amps (class AB but with triac based power supplies) were used for arena size concerts that were the same or nearly the same as their consumer lines. Loads of power (they would use as many Amps as could be supplied and tripped many a home circuit breaker of cranked ) in a light and compact form factor; easy to have spares as backups in case one flamed up or fizzled out, not the best in terms of sound quality.

But SINAD in a sports arena is a funny concept anyway.

 

[psemeraro]

I wonder what it must be like being a professional in this industry, going in more blind than would-be audiophiles into purchases.

Hi. A "professional" in this industry would not be using no-name amplifiers. In live PA Tier 1 you have Crown I-Tech, Powersoft, LabG, and right below that you have Crest, QSC, mid level Crowns and a few others. Expect to pay about $5000 for one amplifier in tier one and about $3000 for one amplifier in tier two. In studios you'll see Bryston, Crown (the high end ones) and a variety of others. In the "MI" space (think local party band) you have a variety of music store amplifiers including low end QSC, low end Crown, Behringer and a variety of others. No music store that I'm aware of sells tier one or tier two amplifiers in-store, of course anything can be ordered online. In movie theaters you have Crown, QSC, and lots of older Ashley amps still working for a living.

Pat

 

[Tks]

Hi. A "professional" in this industry would not be using no-name amplifiers. In live PA Tier 1 you have Crown I-Tech, Powersoft, LabG, and right below that you have Crest, QSC, mid level Crowns and a few others. Expect to pay about $5000 for one amplifier in tier one and about $3000 for one amplifier in tier two. In studios you'll see Bryston, Crown (the high end ones) and a variety of others. In the "MI" space (think local party band) you have a variety of music store amplifiers including low end QSC, low end Crown, Behringer and a variety of others. No music store that I'm aware of sells tier one or tier two amplifiers in-store, of course anything can be ordered online. In movie theaters you have Crown, QSC, and lots of older Ashley amps still working for a living.

Pat

Yeah, but what does this mean? I get they have pedigree, but where are the third party validation tests of these items?

 

[Geert]

Yeah, but what does this mean? I get they have pedigree, but where are the third party validation tests of these items?

They are tested day in day out in practise in the most extreme conditions (running 8 hours and longer at full power with 2 ohm loads or lower in overheated racks or freezing temperatures with humidity >90‰, and thrown in and out of trucks). No one cares for distortion or noise figures beyond hearing thresholds.

 

[psemeraro]

Yeah, but what does this mean? I get they have pedigree, but where are the third party validation tests of these items?

Tours begin with a "rider" (an acceptable list of gear) which is sent out to bid. Manufacturers work for decades to get into the tier one and tier two categories. Starting about 10 years ago, speaker manufacturers bundle amps and dsp as captive systems. All the processing, tuning and validation is done by the manufacturers. JBL systems are powered by Crown, EAW by Powersoft, L'acoustics their LA amplifiers, D&B their D series amplifiers, Meyer is self powered. Modern tour systems can cost multiple seven figures and I PROMISE you the amount of testing and certification is extensive and can take years. From there the market makes the final decisions.
Pat

 

[pseudoid]

...Schiit is less dorky sounding than Sound Town though...

I am having a hard time visualizing what type of attributes a 'dorky sound' can possibly have.

 

[Tks]

They are tested day in day out in practise in the most extreme conditions (running 8 hours and longer at full power with 2 ohm loads or lower in overheated racks or freezing temperatures with humidity >90‰, and thrown in and out of trucks). No one cares for distortion or noise figures beyond hearing thresholds.

That's precisely the problem, with the amount of items in a chain in a studio, how would you know if any metrics are even "beyond hearing thresholds" in the first place..

It's like talking about screen vertical refresh rates, and then figuring out what pixel transition latency looks like. Imagine telling customers "ah 240Hz, 360Hz, why care if you can't tell the difference"?

Sheer stupidity if one actually takes such a stance..

 

[Geert]

That's precisely the problem, with the amount of items in a chain in a studio, how would you know if any metrics are even "beyond hearing thresholds" in the first place..

It's like talking about screen vertical refresh rates, and then figuring out what pixel transition latency looks like. Imagine telling customers "ah 240Hz, 360Hz, why care if you can't tell the difference"?

Sheer stupidity if one actually takes such a stance..

I wasn't taking about studio's (hint; freezing temperatures and truck transport). The number of pro amps used in studio is peanuts compared to live sound.

 

[H-713]

Yeah, but what does this mean? I get they have pedigree, but where are the third party validation tests of these items?

Third party evaluations come from users who refuse to buy your products if they fail too frequently. Distortion isn't some thing most people in the pro world are concerned with. What matters is weight, reliability and useful features (Dante, DSP, etc). Snake oil isn't really a thing for professional amplifiers.

Studios use whatever they feel like using, and seldom use the same type of amplifiers used for live sound. Bryston is particularly common there.

Also, someone mentioned 1U power amps - the main company that sells 1U power amps is Powersoft. Very powerful, very expensive, but very well-built amplifiers. MC2 also has a 1U power amp (The Delta 20) but it isn't particularly powerful.

 

[Tks]

Third party evaluations come from users who refuse to buy your products if they fail too frequently. Distortion isn't some thing most people in the pro world are concerned with. What matters is weight, reliability and useful features (Dante, DSP, etc). Snake oil isn't really a thing for professional amplifiers.

Studios use whatever they feel like using, and seldom use the same type of amplifiers used for live sound. Bryston is particularly common there.

Also, someone mentioned 1U power amps - the main company that sells 1U power amps is Powersoft. Very powerful, very expensive, but very well-built amplifiers. MC2 also has a 1U power amp (The Delta 20) but it isn't particularly powerful.

So it's fair to say this is only an audio industry phenomena? Every other industry I see, has pros opting for the best performing devices in said class. The reliability aspect isn't even a talking point, seeing as how this is a baseline expectation that goes without saying. It's understood from the get-go, but what you and others seem to be saying is, that's basically the only concern audio professionals have (at least the only relevant concern they have enough to bother looking up and verifying before purchase).

Quite strange if this is the insinuation. But with the amount peculiarities in this industry in general, I'd take your word for it, if this is indeed what you're in fact claiming to be the case.

 

[H-713]

So it's fair to say this is only an audio industry phenomena? Every other industry I see, has pros opting for the best performing devices in said class. The reliability aspect isn't even a talking point, seeing as how this is a baseline expectation that goes without saying. It's understood from the get-go, but what you and others seem to be saying is, that's basically the only concern audio professionals have (at least the only relevant concern they have enough to bother looking up and verifying before purchase).

Quite strange if this is the insinuation. But with the amount peculiarities in this industry in general, I'd take your word for it, if this is indeed what you're in fact claiming to be the case.

I have no idea what industry you work in, because that is far from the reality in my world (and a lot of other people's worlds). What matters is that the equipment in question meets the required specifications. If it is good enough, I don't really care if it's 100 times better. A lot of times, the performance specifications are easy to meet. +/- 5% on a measurement is, often enough, plenty good.

On the other hand, reliability is a huge issue. When a fault can result in deaths, millions of dollars loss, or getting called in to work at 1:00 AM because it needs to be fixed immediately, a company with a proven track record means a lot more than pretty numbers on a benchmark.

There is a reason why companies like Keysight, Tektronix, Fluke, etc. are still so profitable, even when there are much cheaper devices that can deliver similar performance. They have a long track record for reliability, and we know that those companies know that the trustworthiness of their equipment is half the reason to choose them over the competition.

In the live sound business, there are certainly some people who have preferences for the sonic characteristics of one amplifier over another. The reality is, you won't be refunding tickets because your power amplifiers had 2% distortion. If they fail in the middle of a show, however, you very well might.

In my world, I'm partial to equipment that I don't have to fight with, and that I won't have to touch once I install it until it's time for an upgrade.

 

[Tks]

I have no idea what industry you work in, because that is far from the reality in my world (and a lot of other people's worlds). What matters is that the equipment in question meets the required specifications. If it is good enough, I don't really care if it's 100 times better. A lot of times, the performance specifications are easy to meet. +/- 5% on a measurement is, often enough, plenty good.

On the other hand, reliability is a huge issue. When a fault can result in deaths, millions of dollars loss, or getting called in to work at 1:00 AM because it needs to be fixed immediately, a company with a proven track record means a lot more than pretty numbers on a benchmark.

There is a reason why companies like Keysight, Tektronix, Fluke, etc. are still so profitable, even when there are much cheaper devices that can deliver similar performance. They have a long track record for reliability, and we know that those companies know that the trustworthiness of their equipment is half the reason to choose them over the competition.

In the live sound business, there are certainly some people who have preferences for the sonic characteristics of one amplifier over another. The reality is, you won't be refunding tickets because your power amplifiers had 2% distortion. If they fail in the middle of a show, however, you very well might.

In my world, I'm partial to equipment that I don't have to fight with, and that I won't have to touch once I install it until it's time for an upgrade.

I already grasp, and fully accept the idea of reliability taking precedent (as I said, this goes without saying in a professional capacity, this isn't even a talking point, that's how essential it is).

While I understand that 2% distortion doesn't matter to professionals. Would failing performance specifications matter or not is what I'm wondering. If it matters, where are these claims tested? I get you say 5% +/- isn't a qualm. But what if it was something like 20% +/- (for example, not simply distortion, but lets say a power measurement of a certain load?). Who actually verfies these claims for the pro-audio industry? Or are marketing claims simply taken at face value?