Sigberg Audio: Building a "design" subwoofer that actually sounds good

[jtwrace]

Love the form factor!

 

[sigbergaudio]

Re-did the CEA2010 today and were able to squeeze an additional 1db out of them at 20hz. Also created some nice graphs to show the frequency response of the different EQ settings.

 

[NDC]

Something like this may be the easiest to construct, but still largely hide the amp: Having the amp on the back (same side as driver, so facing the wall), but all the way to one side and recessed 1-2cm so the controls and cables are still accessible from the side without taking the subwoofer down from the wall:

View attachment 81186

Out of interest - is there a need to protect the amp module in an active sub from vibrations etc caused by the operation of the sub at higher volume? How does that work - e.g. some sort of foam base under the module, analogous to what active studio monitors on stands use? I’ve always wondered if that’s an issue or not

 

[sigbergaudio]

Out of interest - is there a need to protect the amp module in an active sub from vibrations etc caused by the operation of the sub at higher volume? How does that work - e.g. some sort of foam base under the module, analogous to what active studio monitors on stands use? I’ve always wondered if that’s an issue or not

Amplifiers in subwoofers tend to break, so vibrations can certainly be one cause of that. A pretty simple solution (that might at least help a little bit) is a thin foam/rubber gasket around the edge of the amplifier (where it connects with the cabinet), similar to what you typically have around the loudspeaker driver. How much it actually moves does of course depend on how the cabinet is constructed, how rigid it is and where the amplifier is placed.

In these subwoofers the amplifiers have their own separate enclosure (they have to since they are vented through the backplate and the actual driver enclosure needs to be sealed). They're also mounted on the side. Since the enclosure is very shallow this means the panel they're mounted to is very rigid compared to if it had been mounted in the middle of a large back panel in a traditional cube. The amplifier box also acts as additional bracing.

 

[NDC]

Thanks for the reply! Fascinating!

 

[sigbergaudio]

We had a bit of discussion about calculating shipping prices earlier in this thread (basically I was unable to do basic math). And while I'm sure most of our customers are less mathematically challenged than myself, we would still like the experience of purchasing subwoofers from us to be as painless as possible.

As a consequence, we've simply removed the shipping fees. Worldwide shipping is now included in the price.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Added a photo to our instagram showing an example of how these subwoofers can be integrated in your living space.

http://instagr.am/p/CFENtMupR_i/

 

[preload]

This looks promising! As a suggestion, you may want to aim to exceed the cea-2010 values for common subs (like cough SVS) to give people an idea of what to expect. If your designs have the same the sound quality but higher waf, it would seem like a no brainer purchase for the average consumer.

Btw what is the internal volume of your 12" enclosure? (or what are the rough dimensions?)

 

[sigbergaudio]

This looks promising! As a suggestion, you may want to aim to exceed the cea-2010 values for common subs (like cough SVS) to give people an idea of what to expect. If your designs have the same the sound quality but higher waf, it would seem like a no brainer purchase for the average consumer.

Btw what is the internal volume of your 12" enclosure? (or what are the rough dimensions?)

The aim of this product is not to compete with SPL for home cinema setups, and it's more or less impossible given the form factor. The typical SVS subwoofer is 2-4 times the size. I would argue that these subwoofers have better sound quality than many competing brands (no names mentioned), but not the same SPL capability. The component cost (Scan-Speak and Hypex) and quality is way higher and the margins lower than most of the subwoofers you will find out there.

Even the 10" plays plenty loud for music in most living rooms, and both work fine for movies as well, but are limited in output in the low end when playing loud - so it will not be able to compete with a SVS refrigator due to the law of physics. We would like to be transparent about that by posting CEA2010. But we'd also like to point out the actual frequency response during what is normal listening levels for most of the target audience (normal living room situation with a family), by also posting the frequency response that shows a pretty impressive (objectively speaking ) frequency response given the size.

Max SPL @ avg 30-80hz/1m <5% THD is 108dB for the 12" and 105dB for the 10". Which is low compared to many common subwoofers, but it's also still pretty loud, and these are half the size or less.

Our design priorities are

1. Sound quality
2. form factor / size
3. SPL.

The 12" enclosure is 65 x 54 x 17 cm or 25.5 x 21.3 x 6.7 inches.


One target audience are those who wants maximum WAF combined with high sound quality. Another are previously 2.0 purists who want high quality sound and added bottom end rather than maximum SPL. And we humbly think they hold up pretty well. The other day the 12" was mated to the 45,000USD Dynaudio Confidence 60 in connection with a magazine test.

http://instagr.am/p/CFAGvqJpDmX/

 

[sigbergaudio]

This looks promising! As a suggestion, you may want to aim to exceed the cea-2010 values for common subs (like cough SVS) to give people an idea of what to expect. If your designs have the same the sound quality but higher waf, it would seem like a no brainer purchase for the average consumer.

Btw what is the internal volume of your 12" enclosure? (or what are the rough dimensions?)

With regards to SVS: Checked data-bass.com, and our 12" plays as loud as the SB12-NSD at 30hz and significantly louder than both SB12-NSD and PB12-NSD at 40hz (5db and 3db respectively). SB12-NSD is 40% larger, and PB12-NSD is 3,5(!) times larger.

40hz output is only 2,5dB behind the SB13-Ultra, which is almost three times as large.

So that's not all bad even at our number 3 priority of SPL, from a subwoofer that can be all but invisible in your living room?

EDIT: For the record I'm not implying anything negative about SVS, at least two of the ones mentioned above are significantly cheaper subwoofers created with a completely different audience in mind. And since they are larger, they have more output in the low end. So what is "better" depends on your goal and needs.

 

[kaka89]

The aim of this product is not to compete with SPL for home cinema setups, and it's more or less impossible given the form factor. The typical SVS subwoofer is 2-4 times the size. I would argue that these subwoofers have better sound quality than many competing brands (no names mentioned), but not the same SPL capability. The component cost (Scan-Speak and Hypex) and quality is way higher and the margins lower than most of the subwoofers you will find out there.
http://instagr.am/p/CFAGvqJpDmX/

I like the trade off that you made.
Sadly it is out of my budget, it uses a better amplifier than my stereo speaker haha

 

[JDragon]

Can this be placed on its side vertically without wall mounting?

 

[sigbergaudio]

Can this be placed on its side vertically without wall mounting?

In theory yes, but it's not explicitly designed to (there's no feet/mount for feet on the side). So it won't fall over by itself, but it's not super stable in that position, so if you have kids or pets etc that could stumble into it, it wouldn' t be ideal. So I would recommend using the wall mount to secure it to the wall at the floor level.

We could also easily build a custom version with feet mounts without any addition to the price, we did this on one of our prototypes to test this option. We could also optionally get custom built extenders to the feet, as it would need to have steel bars that extend out to the side (similar to what some speakers have) for the feet for it to become very stable. That would cost a bit extra. This is also something you could buy from a third party. The feet mounts are standard M8 inserts.

If you would like to share some specifics on your use case (how/where you'd like to place it), that would be useful.

 

[JDragon]

In theory yes, but it's not explicitly designed to (there's no feet/mount for feet on the side). So it won't fall over by itself, but it's not super stable in that position, so if you have kids or pets etc that could stumble into it, it wouldn' t be ideal. So I would recommend using the wall mount to secure it to the wall at the floor level.

We could also easily build a custom version with feet mounts without any addition to the price, we did this on one of our prototypes to test this option. We could also optionally get custom built extenders to the feet, as it would need to have steel bars that extend out to the side (similar to what some speakers have) for the feet for it to become very stable. That would cost a bit extra. This is also something you could buy from a third party. The feet mounts are standard M8 inserts.

If you would like to share some specifics on your use case (how/where you'd like to place it), that would be useful.

Thanks!

I have exactly one location available for a subwoofer and a standard sized one would block part of a sliding door that’s next to it. A vertical slim form factor sub would fit there perfectly but I can’t drill anything into the walls. How much would adding the “speaker feet” add to the price?

 

[sigbergaudio]

Thanks!

I have exactly one location available for a subwoofer and a standard sized one would block part of a sliding door that’s next to it. A vertical slim form factor sub would fit there perfectly but I can’t drill anything into the walls. How much would adding the “speaker feet” add to the price?

There's this guy who does things like this custom (https://www.facebook.com/BasTiCNC) - that's one option but pretty expensive (270 euro according to him). We could get this done much cheaper if we create a larger batch, but for only a one-off the price does get pretty high.

Here's another guy selling something: https://www.nsmt-loudspeakers.com/content/speaker-outriggers

But I'll tell you what, if you order a subwoofer, we'll machine something similar to the last link, and custom make a version with holes one the side without adding anything to the price. This will be made to order, and we're already struggling a bit on delivery capacity on the cabinets at the moment, so please DM me for delivery time on something like this. We're probably talking closer to xmas.

 

[JDragon]

There's this guy who does things like this custom (https://www.facebook.com/BasTiCNC) - that's one option but pretty expensive (270 euro according to him). We could get this done much cheaper if we create a larger batch, but for only a one-off the price does get pretty high.

Here's another guy selling something: https://www.nsmt-loudspeakers.com/content/speaker-outriggers

But I'll tell you what, if you order a subwoofer, we'll machine something similar to the last link, and custom make a version with holes one the side without adding anything to the price. This will be made to order, and we're already struggling a bit on delivery capacity on the cabinets at the moment, so please DM me for delivery time on something like this. We're probably talking closer to xmas.

Thank you, I appreciate it. Will send you a DM.

 

[sigbergaudio]

We are happy to have received another good review the other day, by the largest Scandinavian audio magazine "Lyd og bilde" (Sound & Picture). They also have an english site, and the translation to English is frankly pretty poor - but I guess you get the gist of it Also aware that the crowd at this site may not take subjective magazine reviews without measurements very seriously. Luckily I've provided measurements earlier in the thread.

They tested the Inkognito 12 subwoofer both with Sonus Faber Olympica II (8,400USD) and Dynaudio Confidence 60 (45,000USD) all with good results.

Link to English (google translatish) review: https://www.lbtechreviews.com/test/speakers/sigberg-audio-inkognito-12
For the Scandinavians, link to Norwegian review: https://www.lydogbilde.no/test/hoyttalere/sigberg-audio-inkognito-12/

 

[Soniclife]

Added a photo to our instagram showing an example of how these subwoofers can be integrated in your living space.

http://instagr.am/p/CFENtMupR_i/

I'm surprised more sub makers don't go for the furniture look. How do they behave with things on top of them?

 

[sigbergaudio]

I'm surprised more sub makers don't go for the furniture look. How do they behave with things on top of them?

That's no problem at all, it's very rigid / well braced. Here's a test we did, playing 100dB with a plant on top. The leaves on the plant barely moved and no vibration noise.

http://instagr.am/p/CBG1PHkANb1/

 

[Harmonie]

And I thought that the leaves of plants move because they like the music and boogie woogie