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Schiit Modius Balanced DAC Review

Helicopter

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Post 732 is uncontroversial because he says, I'll paraphrase, 'I won't make any claim, because I only have subjective experience... I am not an idiot...' and then he shares his subjective experience without drawing or encouraging a specific conclusion.

No reasonable scientific objective person would object to his anecdote in this context.

I am going to be nice and let you infer the rest of my argument. Go ahead and think of it as a standard five paragraph compare and contrast essay.
 
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Zensō

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Then we could establish whether two different DACs, say the D90 and a W4S or SMSL M500 actually sound different is said areas, or any areas, with 'hard evidence' since our own ears fool us for a barrage of reasons apparently.

It’s not our ears that fool us, it’s our eyes and brain. Remove their influence and suddenly the ears become much more reliable.
 

BAMCIS

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^Edited with elipses to show extent of qualification.
I see. I'll try and heed that in the future.

from the boiler plate on this site:

Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously.
 

BAMCIS

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It’s not our ears that fool us, it’s our eyes and brain. Remove their influence and suddenly the ears become much more reliable.
My serious listening is in the dark, that's purely anecdotal. I know that sounds funny on a few levels. CD player's screen is switched off and all those wacky LEDs are all blacked out, which is purely anecdotal. The green ones on my Bryston amp still show, they've never flickered red (clipped) but you can't be too careful, that's also purely anecdotal BTW.
 

Zensō

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My serious listening is in the dark, that's purely anecdotal. I know that sounds funny on a few levels. CD player's screen is switched off and all those wacky LEDs are all blacked out, which is purely anecdotal. The green ones on my Bryston amp still show, they've never flickered red (clipped) but you can't be too careful, that's also purely anecdotal BTW.
Huh? I’m not sure if you’re misunderstanding or if you’re trolling. Obviously, it’s not about whether or not you can see the gear, it’s about not knowing what gear you’re listening to.
 

BAMCIS

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People don't come out of the woodwork, they respond to unfounded and unsupportable subjectivist claims that fly in the face of rationale evidence. Sorry, this is a community where objective evidence is not just desired, it is required. If you can't provide said evidence or even a substantive theoretical basis for a claim, this isn't the community to drop it in and act surprised when it doesn't go unchallenged.

Understood.

Speaking of this community and acting surprised, I can provide one small piece of evidence...

(from the boilerplate on this site)

Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously.

...of course, that's purely anecdotal
 

BAMCIS

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Huh? I’m not sure if you’re misunderstanding or if you’re trolling. Obviously, it’s not about whether or not you can see the gear, it’s about not knowing what gear you’re listening to.
No I understand, just a lighthearted comment
 

Zensō

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Understood.

Speaking of this community and acting surprised, I can provide one small piece of evidence...

(from the boilerplate on this site)

Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously.

...of course, that's purely anecdotal
OK, now I know you’re trolling. Sorry, ignored.
 

BAMCIS

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It's just another way to transmit data. I've never noticed any differences between AES/EBU and spdif/toslink. In fact, most of what I've got will 'run' just fine at shorter distances running spdif into AES. Found that after getting a converter and realizing I could just use an adapter.
Does a RCA to XLR adapter cable do the same for a digital signal as it does for analog signals? All my digital coax cables are 75 ohm but I don't have a 75 ohm RCA to XLR adapter cable, haven't seen one anywhere either. I'd try the regular adapter cables if I knew it wouldn't compromise the 1's and 0's somehow
 
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BAMCIS

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People don't come out of the woodwork, they respond to unfounded and unsupportable subjectivist claims that fly in the face of rationale evidence. Sorry, this is a community where objective evidence is not just desired, it is required. If you can't provide said evidence or even a substantive theoretical basis for a claim, this isn't the community to drop it in and act surprised when it doesn't go unchallenged.
I agree on the importance of objective evidence and I have to ask, did you perform a controlled listening test with each item in your system(s)?

If not, why not? If so, what were the items, what items didn't make the 'cut' and why not?

If you can't wrangle the whole system results just share your last DAC controlled listening test, surely that's still fresh in your mind.

I was told by several members I needed to do this after I mentioned a DAC didn't sound right but I can't as it's gone.

I'm curious as to members controlled test results and I hope no one is hesitant to share there findings. Even if it's just from memory that's still groovy
 

A Surfer

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Understood.

Speaking of this community and acting surprised, I can provide one small piece of evidence...

(from the boilerplate on this site)

Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously.

...of course, that's purely anecdotal
I do feel bad that it may seem like people are jumping on you, that is regrettable if you perceive it that way. I would say much like the distinction that exists between a person as an entity and their behaviour that is what the community is responding to. We are not trying to attack you; however, we are pointing out a behaviour, in this case making rather large and difficult to substantiate claims. I do hope you are able to enjoy this community and if you are willing to keep an open mind (and I have no reason to think otherwise about you) you can learn quite a bit here.

I like head-fi, over there I have about 12 000 posts and several years of membership so I also appreciate a subjectivist hobby leaning, but ultimately I find the objective measurement side probably a little more compelling, when they are audible or reasonable to expect as having an effect on audible information.
 

BAMCIS

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I do feel bad that it may seem like people are jumping on you, that is regrettable if you perceive it that way. I would say much like the distinction that exists between a person as an entity and their behaviour that is what the community is responding to. We are not trying to attack you; however, we are pointing out a behaviour, in this case making rather large and difficult to substantiate claims. I do hope you are able to enjoy this community and if you are willing to keep an open mind (and I have no reason to think otherwise about you) you can learn quite a bit here.

I like head-fi, over there I have about 12 000 posts and several years of membership so I also appreciate a subjectivist hobby leaning, but ultimately I find the objective measurement side probably a little more compelling, when they are audible or reasonable to expect as having an effect on audible information.
Amir's reviews are my first go-to stop and I admit my last five DACs were picked in large part to his cool measurements. Weird though how any non-technical input from members seems limited to "I like it". Positive comments stand without any 'evidence' for some reason.

My first reaction here was wow! How on earth is ASR able to show non-glowing reviews? What a breath of fresh air.

I can tell you there's not much love for ASR in the Stereophile post review comments, which to me are controlled state media. It makes me smile each time "see what Amir says over at ASR" slips past the Stasi over there. I think their non-stop brand worship actually steers people here, though I wish some here weren't quite so dogmatic regarding member's opinions.

I guess shipping costs keep amplifiers from being measured, I'd love to see my old Aragons, Brystons and some others get measured. Pre amps are not really heavy, strange he doesn't get more of those.

I admit I ordered my Schiit Freya S the next day after I saw Amir's take on it. Got it and bam! Sold my Bryston BP-25 that next week. The range on the volume knob took some getting used to. One of the tech guys at Schiit broke it down for me and it made sense. Never had a pre amp that could get past 11 o'clock without being just painfully loud (only use big amps) and the Freya doesn't start getting loud till 1 o'clock. I thought something was wrong with the gain but it's really just spread out evenly from top to bottom. Their ladder resister volume is pretty cool.
 

Veri

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Does a RCA to XLR adapter cable do the same for a digital signal as it does for analog signals?
What does this mean exactly? You can feed a s/pdif signal into a digital XLR input, sure. But why would you??
 

BAMCIS

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I do feel bad that it may seem like people are jumping on you, that is regrettable if you perceive it that way. I would say much like the distinction that exists between a person as an entity and their behaviour that is what the community is responding to. We are not trying to attack you; however, we are pointing out a behaviour, in this case making rather large and difficult to substantiate claims. I do hope you are able to enjoy this community and if you are willing to keep an open mind (and I have no reason to think otherwise about you) you can learn quite a bit here.

I like head-fi, over there I have about 12 000 posts and several years of membership so I also appreciate a subjectivist hobby leaning, but ultimately I find the objective measurement side probably a little more compelling, when they are audible or reasonable to expect as having an effect on audible information.
I don't really feel that anyone's jumping on me, I try to inject a little humor sometimes.

"Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously"

I was at a friends for dinner tonight, his wife and her sister were in the kitchen. I heard one of them say "here, taste this and see if it needs more salt". I couldn't help but start laughing. My friend asked what had me laughing. I said brother, you wouldn't believe me if I told you.

I was imagining his sister saying I can't rule on the degree of salt, not without another pot at the same temperature and the chemical makeup as this one. You won't be able to let me know which pot I am tasting either, sorry for the logistics and total refusal to utilize any of my 40 years of daily cooking level but you know, science first.

The controlled tasting would have no doubt yielded a more definitive answer on the salt issue. But of course she knew immediately if it needed salt or not. As every seasoned cook and chef has for 200 years without fail. She certainly couldn't take away any salt.

I couldn't add or take away any mid-bass from my D90, even though I suspected right away, but refused to accept until a few days later that it didn't like the sound I had known for a long time prior to it being inserted into the chain. As hard as I tried for several weeks after switching every amp, every speaker and position possible in two very different sounding rooms bass-wise, I couldn't pull it's sound any closer to what my other DACs sounded like. And I wanted to get there, believe me. The D90 looked svelte, gorgeous even, dedicated to purpose without even a knob or pesky headphone jack. This was my dCS Vivaldi. I wanted to brag to my fellow audio geeks that I finally had Amirs top measuring DAC (almost) directing my vaunted two channel system. I say that in jest but I'm pretty sure I had the only D90 to Bryston 4bsst2 / Aragon Palladium 1K mono to Magnepan 3.6 / SVS SB4000 rig in the area.

If you have the means I suggest you pick one up.

I have some some friends who swear fancy outboard DACs with expensive(ish) separates sound no different than their bubble gum $400 wi-fi receiver 'driving Polk micro speakers aided by a 20 pound subwoofer from that big box store. The D90 was going to be every bit as convincing to those chuckle heads as was the Topping DX7 Pro, W4S DAC2, SMSL M500 and SMSL SU-8 v2, maybe even slightly more so. Wishful thinking I guess. A lateral move would have been OK given it's cool looks and it lacking the features on the other DACs which I never used anyway.

I think if I still had the D90 and conducted a controlled test but produced the same findings as my garden variety listening it would have met the same caterwauling. The unspoken premise appears to be that I would not have found anything with the test so it's absurd to think I heard anything different without it. If I did I the absolute deviation would be called into question, which of course nullifies the average deviation, etc.

Maybe not.

I've looked for these tests and their results here, no luck. It's either taboo or anyone who did was burned at the stake.

I think some people MAY be in a prison of two ideas. (Pardon the neuroscience)

For these people, an “idea warden” allows the freedom, without remorse, to reflexively dismiss alternative ideas that don’t fit their accepted narrative of what's possible. These narratives become very important in determining how choices are made in all realms of life.

A test in New Zealand was done involving the newspaper containers being left unlocked a few days. Hardly any papers were taken without payment. It was out of fear that it would destroy the system the people relied on.

My take on the D90 was a free newspaper.
 

Jimbob54

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I agree on the importance of objective evidence and I have to ask, did you perform a controlled listening test with each item in your system(s)?

If not, why not? If so, what were the items, what items didn't make the 'cut' and why not?

If you can't wrangle the whole system results just share your last DAC controlled listening test, surely that's still fresh in your mind.

I was told by several members I needed to do this after I mentioned a DAC didn't sound right but I can't as it's gone.

I'm curious as to members controlled test results and I hope no one is hesitant to share there findings. Even if it's just from memory that's still groovy


There is a reason your D90 anecdote attracted attention. You seem to think it is D90 fan boys defending their baby. It isn't.

People would react the same if you'd said it about pretty much any DAC measured here. Your anecdote flies in the face of one of the core understandings here, that a well designed, well measuring DAC should be audibly transparent. Which means it should neither add nor subtract from the source.

We have seen the measurements, people far cleverer than you and I can fully understand and explain that they show this dac is totally transparent. Which gives us a few problems when considering your core finding, which I hope I summarise properly as "it lacked bass". My list of options when reading that were along the lines of : (I'm sure others would have more).

1. You had a defective unit
2. Some impedance incompatibility with your amp or whatever was next in the chain (don't ask me how that would work, I'm just parroting what has been said here and elsewhere, I'm inept regarding the science, I just plug and play and enjoy)
3. You didn't do controlled listening
4. You are correct and have discovered some quirk of science whereby, contrary to what the measurements show and against all other user experiences, this dac somehow depresses some of the lower frequencies.

So you might see why people were keen to push you on what you had done about number 3. Nobody now can do anything to test number 1, number 2 would be unlikely. We can't even tiptoe towards accepting conclusion 4 without passing through 3.

I will put it another way, you have indirectly asserted the dac had a "sound". You say you have been on ASR a while, you must know how people react to that type of assertion when the DAC has been measured here with results that suggest audible transparency?

Going around now asking others about their controlled listening tests doesn't negate any of the above for your anecdote. Personally, I'm happy in my ignorance for the stuff I havent seen measurements for in my pre ASR days. For purchases post ASR, why would I want to do laborious tests? I'm not asserting anything here that flies in the face of what the measurements suggest and what many here understand as a fundamental regarding modern well engineered audio electronics.

The easy option would have been to respond to the first few people to point this out to you with something along the lines of a "thanks for pointing that out , I'll bear that in mind next time I spend days and nights at a time trying to compare DACs", but instead you doubled down on your assertion and tried to convince us you must be right because of your methodology and your "hifi chops".

That's just not how it works and your persistence with it here is why some might view your posts in this thread in the last 24 hours as further evidence of trolling tendencies.
 

BAMCIS

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What does this mean exactly? You can feed a s/pdif signal into a digital XLR input, sure. But why would you??
To have another input on the Modius, slim pickens on the rear of that little gem. Perhaps to perform a controlled listening test of digital transports.... kidding
 

Thomas savage

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Understood.

Speaking of this community and acting surprised, I can provide one small piece of evidence...

(from the boilerplate on this site)

Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously.

...of course, that's purely anecdotal
You had a prior warning now you have been banned for trolling and constant off topic antagonisms .
 

Veri

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To have another input on the Modius
Ah, I agree that could be useful. In any case the AES input is fully compatible with normal S/PDIF, any proper DAC would have no problem handling that :) if you'd wish to do so.
 
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