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Review and Measurements of Schiit Yggdrasil V2 DAC

garbulky

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Ok then. I don't know what else to say. Finally a listening test that is blind and level matched with a multiple people involved and nobody is buying it.
 

SIY

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Ok then. I don't know what else to say. Finally a listening test that is blind and level matched with a multiple people involved and nobody is buying it.
The ocean view from this place is great! I guarantee it!
 
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"So now it's level matched but people are still not buying it?"

when I do exegesis I notice that the Yggdrasil is still for few reasons very very popular......even if freaks like amirm write heavily in a few forums against it....
 
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So now you have resorted to name calling and personal attacks. While amirm has been nothing but honest and far more nice than many including myself would have been. That last post really tells it all.
 

GoMrPickles

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"So now it's level matched but people are still not buying it?"

when I do exegesis I notice that the Yggdrasil is still for few reasons very very popular......even if freaks like amirm write heavily in a few forums against it....
Well, calling the site owner a freak is probably not the path to persuasion.

Instead, consider starting a new thread, titled "Blind test of RME ADI-2 vs Schiit Yggdrasil." Why not post your methodology and results, respond to the questions, and keep an open mind?

The internet really does bring out the worst in people, sometimes.
 

DonH56

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How was level matching performed?

REW, Reaper, Logic......etc assuming a microphone such as at least one Beyerdynamic mm1 with a calibration file
OK, thank you. How closely, how many dB apart? Level matching is a real pain, needs to be very close, far less than 1 dB difference (more like 0.1 dB), for a valid test. A few tenths of a dB will change the outcome.

How was the blind established?
 

amirm

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So now it's level matched but people are still not buying it?
We asked him how to make great pizza pizza and he said with flour, water and sauce.....

I think they made some attempt at comparing the two DACs, but didn't know the pitfalls involved and got unreliable results. No amount of after the fact ingredients remotely bring us closer to the truth. The vocabulary he is using is the telltale sign that nothing was done correctly.
 
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What other technology customer base embraces badly designed products? It's bizarre. The Schiit has all sorts of obvious flaws and DESIGN ERRORS! It's not only Amir's measurements that show this. As a signal processing design engineer myself, these design errors are totally unacceptable.
I'm curious, could you be more specific about these design errors please? If there are many just a few of the worst examples would be fine. Thanks!
 

garbulky

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OK, thank you. How closely, how many dB apart? Level matching is a real pain, needs to be very close, far less than 1 dB difference (more like 0.1 dB), for a valid test. A few tenths of a dB will change the outcome.

How was the blind established?
0.1 db sounds EXTREMELY strict. Some of our measurement microphones don't do that well. 0.5 db seems more reasonable. Maybe even 1 db, Heck I'd even take an attempt at ear matching. Once I got close to level matching it's very hard to tell differences imo. So I don't think it's that unreasonable to get it close. I know I hear the importance of level matching. But in actual music listening does it really make such a huge difference?
 
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amirm

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0.1 db sounds EXTREMELY strict. Some of our measurement microphones don't do that well. 0.5 db seems more reasonable. Maybe even 1 db,
No microphone is involved in this. Using one shows the error in what this means with respect to DACs.
 

SIY

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0.1 dB level difference can be discernible to skilled listeners. It is perceived as a slight difference in clarity, not level. With a good measurement mike, you might do 0.3 dB, assuming it's done without even the slightest bit of change in mike or source position, which is why that's an absolutely invalid way to match levels. With a hobby mike, the errors will be worse.

The real trick is getting the levels matching even if you're measuring correctly. There's ways to do it which, once I name them, will suddenly be exactly the way this supposed experiment was done. It's fiddly, so if that's not described in detail up front, it is guaranteed it wasn't done.
 

DonH56

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1 dB is about what most of us can detect as a change in volume (the Just Noticeable Difference, JND, based on a reference in my old grad school acoustics text) so 0.1 dB to 0.5 dB is the commonly accepted threshold of level matching for DBT/ABX testing. That is, 0.1 dB is about 1/10th the JND, and provides enough margin to ensure virtually all subjects will not detect the difference in amplitude. Someplace above that level most listeners will choose the louder source. One of many things that makes a proper audio DBT tough.

As for the measurement, remember you are not trying to set absolute levels, but relative levels between the two sources. Great accuracy is not really required, just the ability to make two measurements back-to-back with about 1% precision. Play a 1 kHz tone (or pink noise, there are debates about which is better) and switch between sources while measuring the output. You are not trying to match each to some absolute standard, just the change between them to about 0.1 dB (about 1% change in voltage so not really all that accurate compared to what our instruments can do). I usually used one of those big old HP RMS voltmeters (e.g., 3400, below). Nothing in the system is changing but the DAC so matching levels is not a huge task.

I have not set up a DBT in years but did a number of them a long time ago (and far, far away -- but in this galaxy ;) ). Frankly I learned a lot about what not to do... It is hard to set up and run a good test. We usually did a variety with different listeners, different test times, etc. Some were short snippets, some many minutes to a complete song. The tests were to detect differences, not how good or bad something sounded.

The meter:
1549685648299.png


These days there are many more options but I still like the big analog meters; wish I had kept mine!
 
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