Review and Measurements of NAD T758 V3 AVR

[RichB]

My guess is partly due to shame, partly due to ignorance respectively. It's very, very rare for an engineer/company that truly believes they have created a superlative product in a given category to be silent on it's merits - that even seems to apply if it's total snake oil and they're going on and on about how great their new power cord is.

At the same time, most consumers (without any means of measuring performance objectively) can only state that it sounds "good" or "bad" - and as such, can easily ignore criticism as noise in either case. If you didn't like the product/brand/etc. those posts are just "oh that must be why - but I've moved on so non-issue..." - and on the other side it's "well, I don't hear it, and I love it - so non-issue...".

I'm not sure there even is a solution to this dilemma. Whether we like it or not, the issues raised by the tests and reviews @amirm has done are clearly a non-issue for the vast majority of companies and consumers... because they've been acceptable for decades in some cases. Not that this isn't a reason to try to hold their feet to the fire and get more transparency (in both the disclosure and signal fidelity sense) - it definitely is. However, when a tiny minority of the market cries foul, while the rest of it dutifully pulls out their wallets in expectation (or immediately begins crafting glowing prose for the upcoming "review")... it's going to be a long process.

Yes, but just maybe AV companies will compete on performance instead of just inferring performance by specifying the DACs.

- Rich

 

[digicidal]

Yes, but just maybe AV companies will compete on performance instead of just inferring performance by specifying the DACs.

- Rich

Dreams are indeed important in life... I just find they so rarely come true.

 

[speedy]

I am a bit annoyed that new processors that cost $4K+provide do not support more than 48 kHz. Five years-ago there were processors capable of 96kHz.

The issue as I understand it is that the DSPs aren't keeping up with the demands of Room Correction technology. The demands of room correction has just outpaced the improvements in DSPs. Companies could spend a ton of money making custom DSPs (likely on FPGAs) but that is super expensive so they just buy off the shelf stuff which isn't improving quickly enough.

For example, there isn't currently a DSP in any production product that can simultaneously do Dirac Live or Audyssey MultEQ XT32 for more than 2-channels while simultaneously outputting >48kHz. I've been told though that the NADs are theoretically capable of 24/96 with Dirac Live engaged while processing only 2-channels.

 

[Sal1950]

It's a fair question. The short answer is yes. I am looking for SOTA performance on the mains and surrounds, HDMI 2.0b switching upgradable to HDMI 2.1, and DSP processing that does noticeably impact the performance.

Good, glad to hear it. We all know very few people come on line to praise, mainly to complain, and it's hard to get a real feel for a product that way.
So much has been written on Emo processors being bug infested it's hard to tell.

I am a bit annoyed that new processors that cost $4K+provide do not support more than 48 kHz. Five years-ago there were processors capable of 96kHz.

Understand the numbers involved, but how audible do you believe this shortcoming is?
I tend to believe it a non-issue.

 

[Rja4000]

Hi

I measured my MiniDSP DDRC-22D Dirac for SINAD, just to check what impact the DSP and Dirac can be.
You may read it here

 

[RichB]

Good, glad to hear it. We all know very few people come on line to praise, mainly to complain, and it's hard to get a real feel for a product that way.
So much has been written on Emo processors being bug infested it's hard to tell.


Understand the numbers involved, but how audible do you believe this shortcoming is?
I tend to believe it a non-issue.

Just to be clear, I am likely to upgrade my XMC-1 but, if a friend asked my advice, I would point out the 1+ minute cold start, existing issues, and lack of Dirac. Emotiva hardware design is very good and they have the potential of providing an excellent value.

As a baseline, I would like these processors performance to not significantly degrade SINAD with the DSPs engaged.

I don't know if a 48khz limit is an issue. Music is mastered at higher rate and bit-depth to supply headroom. REQ is real-time, does headroom also benefit REQ?

One thing is for certain, when manufacturers can only support 48kHz it does not matter.
When they can support 98kHz, its will be a break-through in sonic performance

I expect the same is true for Class-D ultrasonic noise. Manufacturers insist it is not a problem, but it will be a huge deal for the they have an implementation that eliminates it. I prefer not having it.

- Rich

 

[xhattan]

Mod note: Please don't create duplicate accounts much less to pull this stunt. This is not a game we are playing here. It is a serious discussion of equipment.

Lol. Not really a duplicate account, but my cousin´s account. Of course, it was me who told me to troll you guys, since I was accused from the very beggining of being a troll by some padawans here. Apologies.

Anyhow, just read the review on the M17v2 and it´s a bummer. Kind of destroys my argument that a heftier price would, indeed, come with better measurements and engineering. Still happy with my T758 for the price I paid, and still think (maybe i´m wrong) it´s the best sounding AVR on market up to the 2K mark, but NAD really has to put more effort in quality on their next line coming out soon (or is out already?).

Best regards.

 

[xhattan]

Just an inquiry on curiosity. I know no AVR did for less than 40K, but did any Pre/Pro threw good measurements so far, for less than 5K in price?

Thanks.

 

[Icboschert]

Just an inquiry on curiosity. I know no AVR did for less than 40K, but did any Pre/Pro threw good measurements so far, for less than 5K in price?

Thanks.

Only the NAD M17v2 and Marantz 8805 have been measured thus far for Pre/Pro.

 

[Sal1950]

Only the NAD M17v2 and Marantz 8805 have been measured thus far for Pre/Pro.

@Blumlein 88 measured the Marantz 7701 here.

 

[Dj7675]

While I was holding out hope for NAD to be interested in either commenting on the test results here or providing their own measurements showing better performance, that doesn't appear to be the case. I was hoping for a different outcome but it didn't materialize. Below is the reply I received to my ticket I originally created.

Hello Darin

Thank you for contacting NAD Electronics. I do apologise for the delay in getting back to you.

I cannot speak for Audio Science Review and their process. As a policy, our support crew does not comment on reviews or postings on third party sites not associated or partnered with NAD Electronics.

I can speak for NAD Electronics' over 45 years of experience and effort we put into our product from a quality assurance perspective, a constant review of working to be a leading edge company in software and firmware development in the Home Theater world and finally into the aspect that our software is constantly evolving and improving. This is why our T758v3 will automatically upgrade to the latest firmware (BluOS 3.4.23 at time of this writing) during initial network setup and periodically remind you to update to the latest firmware as they become available. Beyond that we are satisfied with our product performance in our environment and your previous experience in your living room.

I am disappointed to hear you were 100% satisfied with your experience to the point of buying a second one and this third party testing changed your opinion from complete satisfaction to otherwise.

Since the second T758v3 is less than a year old, we are willing to error on the side of caution and work with dealer to issue a warranty on it. I will require the serial number and proof of purchase ( a legible copy of the receipt with your smart phone will suffice) - this will be an exchange for another T758v3.


Best regards,

 

[digicidal]

LOL. Well, I should give them a big thumbs up for at least committing to working out an exchange in case it was defective... however, I'm laughing too hard at the doublespeak in that response:

I cannot speak for Audio Science Review and their process. As a policy, our support crew does not comment on reviews or postings on third party sites not associated or partnered with NAD Electronics.

We only deal with reviewers and publications which have been contractually restrained from finding anything wrong with our products and have agreed to be compensated in return for glowing prose which does the consumer no good whatsoever.

I can speak for NAD Electronics' over 45 years of experience and effort we put into our product from a quality assurance perspective, a constant review of working to be a leading edge company in software and firmware development in the Home Theater world and finally into the aspect that our software is constantly evolving and improving.

We used to be an engineering company, but now we're mostly an assembly and software development firm. This has a really nice side benefit in that we can release products which are not 100% functional and then later update them silently and market this as a "feature" rather than bug or omission. Our name is still the same as it was back when we were engineering though - isn't that good enough... it's a NAME.

Beyond that we are satisfied with our product performance in our environment and your previous experience in your living room. I am disappointed to hear you were 100% satisfied with your experience to the point of buying a second one and this third party testing changed your opinion from complete satisfaction to otherwise.

I am very disappointed in you for even considering objective measurements in your present and future purchasing evaluations. You yourself were quite happy in your subjective ingorance of how mediocre our equipment was, especially in comparison to it's retail price. Just look at how good it looks and at our name. The fact that you aren't 100% happy with whatever we chose for you - after you found out it wasn't all we said it was - is entirely the fault of the objective reviewer (and to a lesser extent, yourself for listening).

Since the second T758v3 is less than a year old, we are willing to error on the side of caution and work with dealer to issue a warranty on it. I will require the serial number and proof of purchase ( a legible copy of the receipt with your smart phone will suffice) - this will be an exchange for another T758v3.

Please have this nice tall glass of Kool-Aid and repeat after me: "If a reviewer claims to hear how much better it is, they must be right. If another reviewer can prove through measurements that it's not - that reviewer must be wrong."

 

[Dj7675]

This was the reply after they did not comment on reviews or outside measurements and I requested their measurements.... It appears they really go all in on Dirac...

Hi Darin

You can find all of our public information about the NAD T758v3 here; https://nadelectronics.com/product/t-758-v3-av-surround-sound-receiver/.

Acoustic measurements are simply not just the receiver, but are subject to change dependent on your connections, objects in the room and what room correction filters are used. We partner with DIRAC to calibrate your room to the experience. We do encourage you to trust what your ears hear as there is much more involved in producing a great listening experience.

Best regards,

 

[GrimSurfer]

Ahhh, the old "trust your ears" defence.

 

[audimus]

In short, they know the unit does not measure well even when they measure it. What else can they be expected to say when that is the case? “Don’t believe what you read, believe what we tell you”. Sounds familiar for US residents these days.

 

[finitol]

Amir, do you think that any (or some of them) complete bunch of issues can be fixed or tamed through a firmware upgrade?

Maybe Nad team will surprise us with a kind of apologie dressed on firmware revision form...

 

[amirm]

Amir, do you think that any (or some of them) complete bunch of issues can be fixed or tamed through a firmware upgrade?

Some of the signal processing losses, yes. But in general, no. I think even the DAC chips they use have limited performance even in ideal designs.

 

[astr0b0y]

Why would anyone think that contacting NAD support would yield a conservation about third party testing results vs their marketing claims? Support‘s role is pretty well defined and understood by most on this forum I would think; provide technical support to customers with technical problems. Their response is pretty fantastic really from the point of view of a technical support team, very customer focussed.

PR and marketing contact details have been posted here and are easily found online, they should be where the volley should be aimed.

 

[Dj7675]

Why would anyone think that contacting NAD support would yield a conservation about third party testing results vs their marketing claims? Support‘s role is pretty well defined and understood by most on this forum I would think; provide technical support to customers with technical problems. Their response is pretty fantastic really from the point of view of a technical support team, very customer focussed.

PR and marketing contact details have been posted here and are easily found online, they should be where the volley should be aimed.

While frustrated that I couldn’t get anything meaningful from support, I agree that the support from a general support ticket was fine. I should also mention that the dealer I purchased it from sent in a couple of emails as well to his contact at NAD and he thought he would get a response back, but didn’t get anything back. He did mention that he was very busy with CEDIA etc and it could take some time. After more than a week I am assuming any more info from NAD won’t be happening.

 

[Sal1950]

Why would anyone think that contacting NAD support would yield a conservation about third party testing results vs their marketing claims? Support‘s role is pretty well defined and understood by most on this forum I would think; provide technical support to customers with technical problems. Their response is pretty fantastic really from the point of view of a technical support team, very customer focussed.

PR and marketing contact details have been posted here and are easily found online, they should be where the volley should be aimed.

Your right but got to start someplace.
Also in a company that size, word gets around that someone is watching.