Revel Salon2 questions

[RichB]

The trouble is the sensitivity. Getting an 86dB sensitive speaker to 105dB/speaker(reference level), at say 4m(probably a normalish distance for that speaker), is gonna take quite a bit of power
View attachment 165179

Luckily, the Salon2 seems to take lots of power quite well. Reference level is also really loud. I doubt many people really want to listen that loud. Finally, boundary gain and having more than one speaker come into play when listening in stereo/multichannel in a normal room, which really helps.

My listening position is at 11 feet so between 3 to 4 meters. When using a calculator, it might be more representative for many to select near walls. Each misestimation doubles the power requirements. My solution was to measure 2.83 volts 0 dBFS sine-wave signals at 250 Hz, 1 kHz, and 2 kHz all were consistent SPL. Two speakers produced 86 dB, a single speaker is 83 dB.

I did this experiment when I received my first AHB2 and drove the Salon2s watching Aquaman with the speakers set to full range.
The woofers were having a workout and the AHB2s (not bridged) were not clipping. This was puzzling.
With 5 speakers, the power requirements seem to be reduced to achieve the loudness levels that me and my family can tolerate.

Having from from ATI AT6002s with 300/450 WPC into 8 and 4 Ohms, I could not reconcile this so I did the experiment to determine my real world requirements.
For anyone concerned, I think it is worth dong some measurements to determine the baseline power requirements.
This table is based on 2 watts driving the AHB2s (bi-amping) since the Salon2s are largely 4 Ohms speakers, so this should be realistic.


For music, I can see how more power is required. For example, if I want to impress folks by playing Awalnation Sail, then I can clip this amps and not get the AT6002 level. For that I would need to bridge them. This is not something I do normally but I have to admit sometimes wanting to

In reality, I suspect that I don't really listen to more that 10 watts with music and movies. Typically, I suspect that I use much less than 1 watt.
One problem with the AHB2s is they have very accurate clipping meters, I suspect if they were off, I would turn them up at least 2 dB more and not notice. At that level., my ears are not discerning.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

After experiencing this problem I contacted revel support and asked how much power they recommend? The prompt email reply was only this.
500 watts.

That is a safe answer, without knowing anything about your room and listening habits.
I don't think there is a problem with a kilowatt but I promise it must be used wisely.
Whatever you use, it is a good idea to provide unclipped power or to overdrive the tweeters.

Revel tweeters cost about $1000 and they will not always be available...

- Rich

 

[RichB]

My H360 rated at 250/425 wpc would go into thermal shutdown when trying to drive the salon 2’s to 96 db! I’ve used this piece to drive several other full range speakers including the blades I’m currently using and the salon 2 was the only speaker to cause this amp to shut down, I’ll add the volume would be set to 65 of a 99 max.

In my room, 30x15x10 feet with openings at 11 feet, it takes about 64 watts to reach 101 dB.
Somethings is very wrong here. Can you provide a link to the amplifier specifications?

- Rich

 

[RichB]

86.4+20*log(3.28/10)=76.7dB/2.83V
105-76.7=28.3dB gain
28.3/20=1.41
10^1.41=25.7
25.7*2.83=72.7V
72.7^2/4=1320W into 4 ohms, 660W into 8 ohms

Are you saying you think that a single Salon2 speaker at 10 feet provides 76.7 dB at 2.83 volts?

If so, it is a pretty simple matter to play a 1 kHz 0 DBFS sinewave from one speaker at 2.83 volts (use a voltmeter to set the volume) and measure the SPL at your listening position. In my room, with two speakers it is 86 dB, or 83 dB single speaker. That is 6 dB higher than your math which means that 1/4 the power is needed in my room. If that applies to the rest of your math, then in my room, the power requirement is 660/4, or 165 watts. It is worth taking some measurements to validate the assumptions.

I am not saying that is correct, but it is important to recognize that room gain and stereo significantly affect actual power requirements, as well as personal preference and, of course, the recordings.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

I so wanted the salon 2 to be my last speaker. After spending $4500 on my h360 and really liking it I decided it was staying and I would keep buying speakers until I found the pair that clicked with it. It was a great excuse to try all the speakers I was interested in as long as I was willing to drive and the sale price was low enough to resell with little to no loss. If I was to design the salon 3 it would be an active dsp of the current model.

I think active bass and passive top makes some sense to deal with room modes but still allow for amplifier tastes, the tubers and such

- Rich

 

[steve59]

SoundStage! Hi-Fi | SoundStageHiFi.com - Hegel Music Systems H360 DAC-Integrated Amplifier

www.soundstagehifi.com

There's a link to the measurements

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

Are you saying you think that a single Salon2 speaker at 10 feet provides 76.7 dB at 2.83 volts?

If so, it is a pretty simple matter to play a 1 kHz 0 DBFS sinewave from one speaker at 2.83 volts (use a voltmeter to set the volume) and measure the SPL at your listening position. In my room, with two speakers it is 86 dB, or 83 dB single speaker. That is 6 dB higher than your math which means that 1/4 the power is needed in my room. If that applies to the rest of your math, then in my room, the power requirement is 660/4, or 165 watts. It is worth taking some measurements to validate the assumptions.

I am not saying that is correct, but it is important to recognize that room gain and stereo significantly affect actual power requirements, as well as personal preference and, of course, the recordings.

- Rich

That is the calculation based on a non-reflective room. Of course the real result will be somewhere between 3dB and 6dB per octave per doubling of distance, and it will depend on where the speakers are placed in the the room of course. There are different ways to calculate SPL at the listening position without measuring it. Some go by room size and say to just use a figure like -7dB for a 3000 cu ft room.

In any case, my assessment is ultimately based on my personal experience with these speakers and not hypotheses or calculations. I was giving them 400 watts and was clipping the amps. I simply needed more power.

 

[steve59]

In my room, 30x15x10 feet with openings at 11 feet, it takes about 64 watts to reach 101 dB.
Somethings is very wrong here. Can you provide a link to the amplifier specifications?

- Rich

My room is 27x17x7' and would be considered damped side of neutral with carpet floors and acoustic tiles over sheetrock ceiling. Measurements showed the woofers just weren't coming close to matching the output of the rest of the system and while the salon 2's have a pleasant mid and high the lack of the bottom end collapsed the soundstage leaving images of singers and instruments floating in space disconnected. very strange. Rich, if you use the same screen name on avs I had to add an n to my name there and you were one of the members to offer suggestions on that site when I brought it up. I sold them to a gent that already had a pair and put mine alongside his so there's 2 salon 2's per side that he drives with a stack of 4 MC601's, claims when he turns up the jams all 4 power meters start dipping in the red!!

 

[RichB]

SoundStage! Hi-Fi | SoundStageHiFi.com - Hegel Music Systems H360 DAC-Integrated Amplifier

www.soundstagehifi.com

There's a link to the measurements

Here is what is found on the Hegel website:

H360

Manufacturer of hi-end audio electronics - amplifiers, preamplifiers, power amplifiers, D/A converters, CD-players and custom installation amplifiers.

www.hegel.com

Hegel H360 is a giant among integrated amplifiers. With 250 watts per channel into 8 ohms and a damping factor of more than 4000, it will control virtually any loudspeaker on the market.​

Power output spk: 250 w/pc into 8 Ohms, 420 w/pc into 4 Ohms
Frequency response: 5Hz-180kHz
Signal-to-noise ratio: More than 100dB
Crosstalk: Less than -100dB
Damping factor: More than 4000 (main power output stage)

I do not see specifications from 20Hz to 20,000 Hz for this amp so the power over the full range and duration may be an issue.

Here are the SoundStage measurements:

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - BHK Labs Measurements: Hegel Music Systems H360 DAC-Integrated Amplifier

www.soundstagenetwork.com

Here is the damping factor measurement.

The measurement is fine but not even close to the claimed value of 4000.
Here is a measurement of the Salon2 impedance:

It may be that the phase/impedance of the Salon2s are not well matched for the H360.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

That is the calculation based on a non-reflective room. Of course the real result will be somewhere between 3dB and 6dB per octave per doubling of distance, and it will depend on where the speakers are placed in the the room of course. There are different ways to calculate SPL at the listening position without measuring it. Some go by room size and say to just use a figure like -7dB for a 3000 cu ft room.

In any case, my assessment is ultimately based on my personal experience with these speakers and not hypotheses or calculations. I was giving them 400 watts and was clipping the amps. I simply needed more power.

I don't think the 3000 cu ft non-reflective rooms are indicative.
I have a 4500 cu ft room with normal reflectivity, two area rungs, a large sectional, some wood walls, beams, brick, and two large openings.

That said, if you clip your amp with the Salon2s and want it louder, definately get a bigger amp (bigger boat too ).

- Rich

 

[RichB]

My room is 27x17x7' and would be considered damped side of neutral with carpet floors and acoustic tiles over sheetrock ceiling. Measurements showed the woofers just weren't coming close to matching the output of the rest of the system and while the salon 2's have a pleasant mid and high the lack of the bottom end collapsed the soundstage leaving images of singers and instruments floating in space disconnected. very strange. Rich, if you use the same screen name on avs I had to add an n to my name there and you were one of the members to offer suggestions on that site when I brought it up. I sold them to a gent that already had a pair and put mine alongside his so there's 2 salon 2's per side that he drives with a stack of 4 MC601's, claims when he turns up the jams all 4 power meters start dipping in the red!!

Yeah, if you clip your 4 Salon2s get bigger amps, but one should consider preserving one's hearing.

- Rich

 

[richard12511]

I don't think the 3000 cu ft non-reflective rooms are indicative.
I have a 4500 cu ft room with normal reflectivity, two area rungs, a large sectional, some wood walls, beams, brick, and two large openings.

That said, if you clip your amp with the Salon2s and want it louder, definately get a bigger amp (bigger boat too ).

- Rich

I'm sure the fact that you have 4 of them (along with separate Salk subs with self power) helps you get some good volume . Man 4 of them would sound awesome. How do you have them setup(layout)? Hopefully not like the guy in the story above .

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

My initial point also wasn't that you need 1000W/4+ to get good sound from the Salon2's. I just pointed out that they can handle that much and in some cases you will need that much to hit reference levels. When it comes to amplifiers, I think one should get the amplifier that allows him to use his speakers to their fullest capabilities. The Benchmark AHB2 is a great amplifier, but the Salon2's can handle more power than it delivers, and it has levels of distortion and noise way below what would be considered theoretically audible under perfect conditions for these insensitive speakers. You can get an amplifier that is also "blameless" and significantly more powerful that will be a better match for the Salon2's for the same price or less than the AHB2.

 

[richard12511]

My initial point also wasn't that you need 1000W/4+ to get good sound from the Salon2's. I just pointed out that they can handle that much and in some cases you will need that much to hit reference levels. When it comes to amplifiers, I think one should get the amplifier that allows him to use his speakers to their fullest capabilities. The Benchmark AHB2 is a great amplifier, but the Salon2's can handle more power than it delivers, and it has levels of distortion and noise way below what would be considered theoretically audible under perfect conditions for these insensitive speakers. You can get an amplifier that is also "blameless" and significantly more powerful that will be a better match for the Salon2's for the same price or less than the AHB2.

I didn't take your original post to mean they can't sound great with the Benchmarks . I've no doubt they sound stellar with those amps, but I agree with you that there other amps out there (often cheaper) that are just as audibly perfect, and can drive the Salons to even louder volumes. The allure of the Benchmark seems to be the knowledge of knowing you have the lowest distortion amp on the market, even if the ears can't tell.

One thing I like about the Benchmarks that my current Nord amps don't have are the excellent clip lights and clip protections.

 

[Rottmannash]

For reference, I was driving my Salon2's with Purifi 1ET400A's (425W/4, 225W/8) at a 10ft listening distance from the speakers, and I got clipping with bass-heavy music at -3dB below reference. It was loud, but my ears and the speakers could handle more. I upgraded to Hypex NC2000's and have not run into any problems since.

We're the Purifis bridged?

 

[RichB]

I'm sure the fact that you have 4 of them (along with separate Salk subs with self power) helps you get some good volume . Man 4 of them would sound awesome. How do you have them setup(layout)? Hopefully not like the guy in the story above .

I have the Salon2s as front and rear. Concert movies like Yesterday and Bohemian Rhapsody sound fantastic with capable rear channels.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

I didn't take your original post to mean they can't sound great with the Benchmarks . I've no doubt they sound stellar with those amps, but I agree with you that there other amps out there (often cheaper) that are just as audibly perfect, and can drive the Salons to even louder volumes. The allure of the Benchmark seems to be the knowledge of knowing you have the lowest distortion amp on the market, even if the ears can't tell.

One thing I like about the Benchmarks that my current Nord amps don't have are the excellent clip lights and clip protections.

The clip indicators and protection are important to me.
I moved to AHB2s only after a friend brought one over and noticed the detail provided by these amplifiers when compared to the AT6002s.
We were not listening for the noise floor.

As far as power, I’d love it if the AHB2s could be the ultimate power source for the Salon2s but after owning them for a while, I discovered that I prefer these amps and they have enough power to drive the Salon2s to my desired listening levels for music and movies.
I expected to runout of power watching movies, do not.
Recently, we watched Dune and it has an very good sound track. I pushed it and not a clip indicator lit. The subs got quite a workout and shook the very ground (Braveheart ).

If you want to drive the Salon2 with a kilowatt, they will take it if you can

- Rich

 

[Lsc]

Hi - I am thinking about upgrading my stereo audio setup (all because I spend too much time on ASR!) and need guidance from the experts. I have decided on Revel Salon2, and here are my questions -
1. Will I need a subwoofer to complete the range?
2. Will a pair of Benchmark AHB2 in bridged mono mode provide enough power to drive this?
3. Will this setup need any equalization (in that case will get rme adi-2 dac fs)?

Thanks in advance!

I just got the salons this year and with no sub, they have all the bass I want for music.

I’m not sure about the Benchmark but these speakers are power hungry. I used ATI4000 amps and they clipped to the point that the amp shut off and restarted. I now use the ATI6000 and it seems like it’s doing well. I am experimenting with bi-amping Witt the 4000/6000 and I think this is the best combo.

I am using an Emotiva XMC2 as my preamp and Dirac helps control the overwhelmingly powerful bass hump at 25 Hz so I would say yes.

 

[Siwel]

I drive my Salon2s with an MC452 at 450 per. This is adequate power but by no means all they will handle and there are times I feel I‘d like more if I wish to preserve all the headroom I feel is desirable. My 24x15x10 room is treated for first reflections, carpeted and just a touch on the damped side.

After about a year of use, I wasn’t satisfied with bass punch regardless how I placed the speakers. If I thought the bass was a bit better in one location I inevitably became dissatisfied with other aspects of the presentation. But the Salons never quite gave me the bass power I hoped for. This resolved itself when I added a crossover and a pair of JL subs. I now have the balance I’d hoped to achieve running full range but it did take a pair of subs for my room to get there. I did it in stages, first adding one, then a second sub. I’d add another sub or two if I had my druthers and may do that at some point but it’s really quite swell sounding now even if I do want even more clean punch from time to time.

I thoroughly enjoy what I have but if I had it to do over again, I’d be up for even more power for the added headroom. They do achieve the level in room that I need but can start to harden up and get a bit bright at the top of the range when I really push it. So more power please Scotty. And I shall be keeping the subs. Terrific smooth, clean, balanced speakers but if you’re into the full range of a symphonic work or like your pop at concert level, bring the power and be careful to avoid clipping into the things. They like current.

 

[Rottmannash]

I drive my Salon2s with an MC452 at 450 per. This is adequate power but by no means all they will handle and there are times I feel I‘d like more if I wish to preserve all the headroom I feel is desirable. My 24x15x10 room is treated for first reflections, carpeted and just a touch on the damped side.

After about a year of use, I wasn’t satisfied with bass punch regardless how I placed the speakers. If I thought the bass was a bit better in one location I inevitably became dissatisfied with other aspects of the presentation. But the Salons never quite gave me the bass power I hoped for. This resolved itself when I added a crossover and a pair of JL subs. I now have the balance I’d hoped to achieve running full range but it did take a pair of subs for my room to get there. I did it in stages, first adding one, then a second sub. I’d add another sub or two if I had my druthers and may do that at some point but it’s really quite swell sounding now even if I do want even more clean punch from time to time.

I thoroughly enjoy what I have but if I had it to do over again, I’d be up for even more power for the added headroom. They do achieve the level in room that I need but can start to harden up and get a bit bright at the top of the range when I really push it. So more power please Scotty. And I shall be keeping the subs. Terrific smooth, clean, balanced speakers but if you’re into the full range of a symphonic work or like your pop at concert level, bring the power and be careful to avoid clipping into the things. They like current.

Where do you cross them over? 80 Hz?