Replace OP amps. Completely pointless, or not?

[Bob from Florida]

Why do so many OPs change amps in, for example, the amplifier AIYIMA A07 TPA3255?

What's the point of that? Does not modern OPs amps amplify the signal completely linear straight(if the construction they sit in is well constructed,
and made to fit OP amp X)? Do not modern OP amps have a distortion level far, I mean really FAR below the audible? What the hell is the difference in sound that those who change claim to hear? Is it just imagination or have I missed something now?

Tips for those who have a friend who can help. Just to test. OP amps are not expensive. Ask your friend to change them in, for example, your Aiyima BUT you will not find out when and if he has done so. It is entirely up to your friend to do, or not to do. Then in time, your friend will ask you if you heard, noticed any difference in the sound.

Variant two. Ask your friend to paste small notes on a number of OP amps. You do not know which OP amp is which. Then switch and listen. Also ask your friend to number differently even though some are the same OP amp.

I say good luck hearing any difference. I think those who test the above will not hear any difference. Personally, I had bought something other than the few money op amps cost. Pizza for example. Put on the bandage and ask your friend to buy some different pizza varieties and blind test. In any case, it's yummy ... You would get something positive from such a test.

Attached files, data from Texas instruments and Wikipedia regarding distortion levels regarding OP amp NE5532 and LM4562.Change from NE5532 to LM4562 there those who did just that. Why?

NE5532 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 156675View attachment 156676

Change op amps if there is something audible being introduced by the op amp. Prime example is "hiss" caused by the op amp. You may be able to find a "drop in" replacement without any circuit changes that won't "hiss". Obviously measurable if you can hear the "hiss". Just one example of a valid reason to "upgrade" the op amp. If you are shopping specifications and the difference between op amp A and B is below hearing thresholds - why bother? Battery powered devices would benefit from a lower power consumption op amp all other parameters being equal. Or maybe you are just "itching" to change something. Changing Op amps is the solid state version of "tube rolling" come to think of it.
As a manufacturer the way to discourage op amp rolling is to solder them to the board. That will separate the "men from the boys" especially with surface mount op amps.

 

[DanielT]

To buy a desoldering station to change op amp. It ..wait now if you are on that track and we are talking affordable. Fix an older used amplifier and start a recap.Although that it something completely different than popping different op amp in and out of a socket.

I do not mind AIYIMA A07 TPA3255. On the contrary, it seems to be a good, affordable amplifier.

AIYIMA A07 TPA3255 Review (Amplifier)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the AIYIMA A07 desktop amplifier based on TPA3255 class D amplifier chip. It was kindly purchased new by a member and drop shipped to me. The cost is US $72 on Amazon including prime shipping. And as of this shipping, it also included a 32 volt, 5...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[JWAmerica]

Cause they can charge more for an upgrade ...

I think the ultimate reason why Aiyima offers it is because people like @Tangband exist. A fool and his money...

 

[Cbdb2]

My counter-question. If so, why do not Aiyima themselves put in lm4562 from the beginning?

Because people like you think it makes a difference, it doesn't.

 

[DanielT]

Because people like you think it makes a difference, I doubt it.

I do not think it makes any difference. It is Tangband, in this thread, who said that Aiyima themselves recommend lm4562 .Hence my question.

 

[Cbdb2]

I do not think it makes any difference. It is Tangband, in this thread, who said that Aiyima themselves recommend lm4562 .Hence my question.

Sorry. My missread.

 

[Dro]

Audiotrak Dr.Dac2

Dr.Dac2 пришел на смену первой версии Dr.Dac и представляет собой универсальное устройство, которое может работать как звуковой интерфейс (через USB), внешний ЦАП, предварительный усилитель для усилителя мощности и как усилитель для наушников. Первая версия устройства представляла собой сугубо...

www.ixbt.com

You might want to translate this to English. Here the NE5532 op-amps of the Audiotrak Dr. DAC2 DX (very good, non-nonsense DAC at a reasonable price back then) were replaced by LM4562, which lead to a measurable improvement in THD and IMD. THD from -100 dB down to -106 dB.

Certainly quite some improvement, although not audible. The metal can version of the LM4562 might have done even better. I highly doubt op-amp changes will be audible in any design where they are all applied correctly and stable, unless you got a faulty one. But considering how excited we at ASR get over -110 vs -120 dB THD, I'd say swapping an NE5532 for an LM4562 is valid.

 

[SIY]

Chances are, no actual sound difference. But... if there is (BIG if), the 4562 is likely to be worse since it has tendencies to oscillate.

Ignorance combined with a handwaving story = niche marketing.

 

[pma]

Differences are usually marginal, if decent opamps are used. Below is the measurement of rather complex preamp when there was a change at one IC position, between AD744 and OPA134. Notch filter witch -60dB attenuation of fundamental frequency was used, however almost no difference.
In any case I do not recommend the opamp swapping without proper measurements being done.

 

[DanielT]

Differences are usually marginal, if decent opamps are used. Below is the measurement of rather complex preamp when there was a change at one IC position, between AD744 and OPA134. Notch filter witch -60dB attenuation of fundamental frequency was used, however almost no difference.
In any case I do not recommend the opamp swapping without proper measurements being done.

View attachment 157121

View attachment 157122

Just what I was thinking.

If you look at that, there are some capacitors, what fun. I take out the soldering iron and pop in them in my new amplifier. I have no idea what I'm doing but hey this is hifi and then you do it that way. ... kind of like that ...

I do not understand the hifi industry and many of its practitioners, consumers. These strange solutions. People who normally otherwise look at electronics and mechanics in a pretty healthy way. Few people start changing parts in their car engine based solely on the feeling they get

An expensive lousy tube amplifier can be procured (there are tube amps that are on the verge of ok but there is also a lot of rubbish). It is bought for large sums, just by feeling, but the same person carefully reads through the technical specification when a new washing machine is to be purchased.Because then, all of a sudden, you have to read the technical data, performance and take part in objectively performed tests.

Excuse me if I waffle. Just needed to get it out of my system.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Just what I was thinking.

If you look at that, there are some capacitors, what fun. I take out the soldering iron and pop in them in my new amplifier. I have no idea what I'm doing but hey this is hifi and then you do it that way. ... kind of like that ...

I do not understand the hifi industry and many of its practitioners, consumers. These strange solutions. People who normally otherwise look at electronics and mechanics in a pretty healthy way. Few people start changing parts in their car engine based solely on the feeling they get

An expensive lousy tube amplifier can be procured (there are tube amps that are on the verge of ok but there is also a lot of rubbish). It is bought for large sums, just by feeling, but the same person carefully reads through the technical specification when a new washing machine is to be purchased.Because then, all of a sudden, you have to read the technical data, performance and take part in objectively performed tests.

Excuse me if I waffle. Just needed to get it out of my system.

The hi fi industry is not that hard to understand. The bottom line is to make money. You make money by selling products. Products are purchased because of the appeal to the buyer. Some buyers want to pursue measurements as the decision maker. Some buyers actually audition gear in their homes and use a combination of factors - measurements, aesthetics, and sound quality in their rooms. Some buyers buy into marketing hyperbole or high prices to guide them. Manufacturers know this and take these factors into consideration in product development and marketing. I would not be surprised at exchanges as follows. - Marketing - brand xyz capacitor is high on the buzzword list right now. Let's put them in our products. Engineering - those cost twice as much and don't measure well or last as long. Marketing - put them in anyway as we will sell 10 times the product and after warranty service will make a ton of money. Extreme example and each manufacturer makes their own decisions to how "honest" they want to behave. Not really hard to understand - the buyer should "beware" as always.

 

[DanielT]

Of course, if there is no demand, there is no supply. But where does that slightly, in my eyes, strange demand come from? Who creates it? The producers who push on there maybe?

When did you last see an ad like this:
Unique opportunity to buy this unusual washing machine from the year 1974. Get that nice soft vintage wash feeling. Something that modern machines can not handle .... and so on ....

Okay I admit , I know nothing about old washing machines They may wash more gently than newly made. BUT I have never seen any vintage washing machine from the 70's appear on the used market.

Washing machines, slightly OT, perhaps best to return to the world of sound / hifi.

 

[TheWalkman]

Why? Because we can.

This reminds me of how, as a teenager, we would mod our cars with headers, exhausts, suspensions, etc, like our little MG or Triumph was headed for a race at LeMans, though in reality, it was headed for the high school football stadium or the remote, off campus parking lot to sit for weeks on end while attending college.

A lot of hard earned lawn care or burger flipping monies were pissed down the drain to do this, but it really was good, clean fun.

Why do we roll op amps? Because the chips are normally socketed and we can. Does it make any sense? Probably not. Is it good, clean fun? Sure.

 

[MRC01]

Why? Because we can.

This reminds me of how, as a teenager, we would mod our cars with headers, exhausts, suspensions, etc, like our little MG or Triumph was headed for a race at LeMans, though in reality, it was headed for the high school football stadium or remote parking lot to sit for weeks on end while attending college.

A lot of hard earned lawn care or burger flipping monies were pissed down the drain to do this, but it really was good, clean fun.

Why do we roll op amps? Because the chips are normally socketed and we can. Does it make any sense? Probably not. Is it good, clean fun? Sure.

Modifying cars is indeed good clean fun. Back when I was doing it, it was for racing in SCCA. Each mod improved car performance in a measurable way, either on the dyno, the skidpad/accelerometer, or on the course in faster times.

By analogy, I once modified a piece of audio gear to correct an audible deficiency. Fixed it and measurements confirmed both that it was there, and that it was fixed. Details here, pics or it didn't happen

Then again, some people modify cars just for fun and appearance: lowering, giant wings, loud exhaust, etc. Nothing wrong that that, each to his own!

 

[DanielT]

Why? Because we can.

This reminds me of how, as a teenager, we would mod our cars with headers, exhausts, suspensions, etc, like our little MG or Triumph was headed for a race at LeMans, though in reality, it was headed for the high school football stadium or remote parking lot to sit for weeks on end while attending college.

A lot of hard earned lawn care or burger flipping monies were pissed down the drain to do this, but it really was good, clean fun.

Why do we roll op amps? Because the chips are normally socketed and we can. Does it make any sense? Probably not. Is it good, clean fun? Sure.

DIY. Absolutely. Sure with the cars in your teens, it made a difference. Maybe you even took ou the time clock and measured?

I am now procuring materials for two DIY subwoofers. I know there will be a difference in the sound with them plugged in (how good they will be is another matter). What I will not do with them, however, is:
Case 1. X amount of filling in the boxes.
Case 2. X - 10 grams less filling.

Then listen.

I can of course do it ..... if it would be fun which I personally do not think. Unnecessary extra work to hear absolutely 0 difference in sound because of it...

 

[DanielT]

Modifying cars is indeed good clean fun. Back when I was doing it, it was for racing in SCCA. Each mod improved car performance in a measurable way, either on the dyno, the skidpad/accelerometer, or on the course in faster times.

By analogy, I once modified a piece of audio gear to correct an audible deficiency. Fixed it and measurements confirmed both that it was there, and that it was fixed. Details here, pics or it didn't happen

Then again, some people modify cars just for fun and appearance: lowering, giant wings, loud exhaust, etc. Nothing wrong that that, each to his own!

Exactly.I'm on the same (race) track.

It was just that bit, compared to replacing high-performance extremely low-distorted op amps ..

 

[pma]

DIY. Absolutely.

No. Swapping opamps without knowledge and measurements is ignorance and laziness, not DIY. DIY means ability, willingness to learn and grow. As of this, diyaudio.com is a place for competent DIYers rather than ASR.

 

[DanielT]

No. Swapping opamps without knowledge and measurements is ignorance and laziness, not DIY. DIY means ability, willingness to learn and grow. As of this, diyaudio.com is a place for competent DIYers rather than ASR.

It was mostly a more general reflection regarding DIY and cars because The Walkman slipped on that track.

On the contrary, this is exactly what I am amazed at this change of OP amps seemingly without knowledge. That is the purpose of the thread. Find out why there are those who do that. I do not change OP amps at random. I am not a designer of amplifiers.

DIY is by definition to do it yourself. Says nothing about the result itself or what you learn along the way you do it. Hopefully you will learn something and gain more knowledge, but that is not certain.

There are good DIY solutions as well as bad ones.

Kal Rubinson's comment in another thread regarding DIY and Hifi I find interesting:

Yes, in fact, in the very early days, you had no choice regardless of your budget. If you could not DIY, you commissioned someone to do it for you. Empty speaker and equipment cabinets were available along with custom cabinetry. My first real speaker had a 12 "GE woofer and a 3" RCA tweeter with a network I designed and assembled myself. The cabinet was a floor-standing bass reflex which I bought, unfinished, from River Edge. I was fortunate to have a cousin who finished it for me in satin mahogany.

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

Most innovative manufacturer / person in HiFi in your country

Seen from a historical perspective. Company and or person. What is your suggestion? Feel free to motivate. It can be a person or company that is well known globally, but it can also be a company or person from your country that is perhaps best known within your country's borders. It would be...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Bob from Florida]

No. Swapping opamps without knowledge and measurements is ignorance and laziness, not DIY. DIY means ability, willingness to learn and grow. As of this, diyaudio.com is a place for competent DIYers rather than ASR.

You can spend a lot of time researching components and using manual - paper, pencil, calculator - or automated - Spice for example - to design your DIY device. Then you build it and likely find out your prototype does not quite work as predicted. You dig into it, make some changes, and try again. Another method is to apply the empirical technique - also known as "trial and error". This involves a basic design to begin with but more real world adjustment earlier in the process rather than later. Both approaches involve "doing it yourself". You can learn a lot by using the "empirical approach".

 

[Bob from Florida]

DIY. Absolutely. Sure with the cars in your teens, it made a difference. Maybe you even took ou the time clock and measured?

I am now procuring materials for two DIY subwoofers. I know there will be a difference in the sound with them plugged in (how good they will be is another matter). What I will not do with them, however, is:
Case 1. X amount of filling in the boxes.
Case 2. X - 10 grams less filling.

Then listen.

I can of course do it ..... if it would be fun which I personally do not think. Unnecessary extra work to hear absolutely 0 difference in sound because of it...

Here is a link to a somewhat unusual subwoofer.

Bucket Sub

Worlds cheapest best subwoofer project

www.transcendentsound.com

The sub itself is cheap and easy to hide if you get a black bucket. My son and I built one for his system using the Dayton 230 rack mount sub amp - got it cheap off of facebook marketplace. Works amazingly well.