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Well I guess that if you can spend thousands of $/€ in your equipment, spending an extra 100 or 200 on cables/connectors isn't going to have much impact on your wallet...
Since I'm on that group of people that doesn't have very deep pockets and my system in the "hundreds" range only... I'm on the opinion that spending (way) more than 1 $/€ on a banana plug, that has no proven benefit, is just a pointless waste of money...
I'd really like to see some real measurements on this, to see how much impact (if any) this can have on a (high end) system...
2 points for that.
You can get pure copper or copper beryllium bananas uncoated for soldering for €1-2 per piece. It requires 5-10 minutes of effort per year, but that's too much for many people.
We can't yet measure the sound quality or the effects on the sound quality, but it won't always stay that way.
Sorry to be a little bit out of the scope of this thread, but I (at least myself) rather prefer tin-electroplating pure copper crimp terminals than banana plugs since I (we) need to use multiple SP cables and so many terminals/plugs in DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active audio system; the very thin and soft tin film on the surface of pure copper, by tightly screw-up, effectively increases the clean metal-to-metal contact surface areas and hence establishing very low contact resistance in nice durability. Of course, these crimp terminals are made of non-magnetizable metals.
EDIT: Just for your info, these are really cheap, but very much reliable and robust; non-magnet tin-electroplating pure copper (industry use) crimp terminals (about USD 6.3 = JPYen 900 per 100 pcs box!) together with very cheap heat-shrink insulator covers (USD 7.0 = JPYen 1,000 per 10 m!) which I use only 2 cm for one crimped terminal.
If you would be interested in these photos, please refer to my recent post here #895 on my project thread for the details.
BTW, you (we) should never solder the crimped tin-electroplated pure-copper terminals, as we recently discussed here and here on my project thread.
As for the elimination of magnetic susceptibility metals, we also discussed again here.
BTW, you (we) should never solder the crimped tin-electroplated terminals, as we recently discussed here and here on my project thread.
As for the elimination of magnetic susceptibility metals, we also discussed again here.
If we would accidentally use magnetic metals, e.g. for a terminal block (metal plates and/or screws), it will considerably deteriorate the sound by giving blur, low-resolution and uncleanliness to the sound quality.
How browsed a bit through the comments, including other comments you linked such as this, but I could not find clear evidence of this...
I do not deny that ferromagnetic metals can possibly deteriorate the signal more or be more susceptible to external interference (in comparison to non-magnetic metals), but my point is that those effects are so tiny that it doesn't matter (similarly to what Amir points out on this video, that you have linked as well on one of the threads mentioned above).
The part I mostly disagree with you is where you say "considerably deteriorate".
From what I could tell (from what I've read in the threads you linked), your base for this conclusion is just some not-so-blind subjective tests... Did I get it right or did I miss something?
I only believe in subjective listening tests if it's a truly blind (or double blind) test where a group of people can consistently (at least 8 out 10 times) identify the correct cable/switch (or whatever is being tested).
I understand some people are perfectionists and like to "fix" even the tiniest of details (especially if they have deep pockets), but effects that are well bellow the audible realm are IMHO a waste of time/money. Of course the psychological aspects can be very strong and if piece of mind can be purchased, sure... why not...
Yes, you are correct in terms of "absence of clear scientifically validated objective evidences given by dualazmak himself"!
I am not an (professional) expert in audio engineering field, and I do not have capabilities of performing "scientifically and statistically validated" reproducible true ABX blind experiments in my home audio setting, and I do not have any advanced audio measurement gears (which amirm and Erin are using). I am just an amateaur audio enthusiast enjoying audio DIY and more importantly listening to music using my multichannel audio setup. (I am a Ph.D. researcher in structural organic chemistry, polymer chemistry, pharmaceutical science, radiopharmaceutical research, MRI research and the related field thereof).
I and my wife, as well as some of my audio enthu friends, however, clearly subjectively experienced/heard the audible differences between with and without the magnetizable metals/screws in our SP high-level signal handling routes; more specifically such difference was heard during the initial DIY of the outer passive LCR-network-attenuator box (ref. #250, even not in use now) and in the SP cabling boards (also ref. #250).
When I have used cheap terminal block with magnetizable metal plate and screw (designed for home AC 100V PS braranching/connection purchased at nearby home center ), we clearly heard the slightly blurred (should I say "distorted"?) sound, and such "blureness" (distortion) in the sound was clearly excluded/eliminated by replacing them by non-magnetizable terminal strips and screws for audio use (still not so expensive ones, the "6-port non-magnet terminal-block/screw" I use in the photos of post #250 purchased at audio proshop in Tokyo is only about USD 2.0 or JPYen 300).
In one photo of the "SP cabling board" in my early post here #4 on my project thread, I also wrote "I once have tested Multi-Terminal Electromagnetic Relay and Multi-Terminal Snap-Toggle Switch for this purpose, but I found they gave some uncleanliness to the total sound. Consequently, I believe that the physical screw-up cabling connections (using non-magnet metals/screws) like in these connection boards should be the best way to go with."
I also have leaned the actual practices and efforts in HiFi audio industry, just for example as I shared here;
If you take a look inside some rather high-end HiFi amplifiers, you'll see that the SP output wiring (and power wiring?) uses non-magnetic terminals and screws made of brass (no iron at all) or pure copper. However, this is also a common-sense measure to prevent sound quality deterioration in HiFi amplifiers. I remember it being pointed out and explained in interviews with a Yamaha amplifier designer and a Rotel engineer.
It is frustrating when working with magnetized screwdrivers (screwdrivers) because you can't catch the screws, though.
Yamaha's and Rotel's amplifier designers had a hard time persuading the assembly workers at the amplifier factories, but in the end they convinced them to use non-magnetic terminals and screws, giving priority to sound quality; I've also heard that the screwdriver, which uses a chuck to fix screws and bolts to the tip, was devised so that it could be used in factories. In my DIY audio setup, I have the same thing; I strictly/completely eliminate/avoid any magnetizable metal/screw in my SP cabling/connecting.
Those (HiFi?) audio products referred in my post here are also fit in this perspective.
Then, I (we) became aware of an typical audible and measurable example case of original version of BUCKEYE 3 Channel Purifi Amp which had steel plate (by their initial mistake) at its SP binding posts giving "audible and measurable" distortion to the sound which clearly and objectively suggested by amirm. BUCKEYE company has been so nicely and faithfully investigated the issue and finally identified the cause of the distortion (the steel plate), and they replaced the parts with blass plates by a kind of recall announcement; please refer to the specific thread for the detailed story. And here is amirm's review and measurements after the fix of the issue by BUCKEYE. Edit: Please also refer to the@Sokel'spost #70 below.
I understand some people are perfectionists and like to "fix" even the tiniest of details (especially if they have deep pockets), but effects that are well bellow the audible realm are IMHO a waste of time/money. Of course the psychological aspects can be very strong and if piece of mind can be purchased, sure... why not...
No, as I described above in this post, at least for me (for us), the "this specific issue" is "audible realm", just like amirm and BUCKEYE has experienced with the "steel plate" case. And, I did not waste much money in implementing my counter measures, as you may easily understand if you would read through my project thread. (Just for your convenience and quick overview, you can find the Hyperlink Index for my project thread here and here.)
My rather long multicore Vinyl Cabtyre Cables (AWG10 and AWG12, widely available and used popularly/widely in electric industry) and non-magnet tin-electroplating pure copper crimp terminals, non-magnet terminal blocks and screws (audio-grade) are really "reasonably affordable" ones.
EDIT: Just for your info, these are really cheap, but very much reliable and robust; non-magnet tin-electroplating pure copper (industry use) crimp terminals (about USD 6.3 = JPYen 900 per 100 pcs box!) together with very cheap heat-shrink insulator covers (USD 7.0 = JPYen 1,000 per 10 m!) which I use only 2 cm for one crimped terminal.
I assume that my DSP-based multichannel (using excellent multichannel DAC OKTO DAC8PRO) multi-SP-driver multi-HiFi-amplifier fully active audio system (ref. here for the latest setup) and my ears and brain (as well as my audio listening room environments/acoustics), are now sensitive enough in identifying/hearing such subtle differences in various aspects of sound quality when I intensively check and tune the system by carefully listening to my "Audio Sampler/Reference Music Playlist" (ref. here, here and my another thread here).
And very fortunately, once tuned and maintained optimally, my system always wow and amaze me in my music listening sessions, as just I briefly summarized here.
I have now tested a large number of speaker (banana) plugs for screwing. Until now, all gold-plated or rhodium-plated plugs that were priced below the "INAKUSTIK BFA-103 HOLLOW BANANAS REFERENCE RHODIUM" were magnetic. The only gold-plated and screwed plugs that were not magnetic are the "WBT 0610 CU NEXTGEN™", but all replicas of them are also magnetic.
So far, the only non-magnetic plugs that can be screwed on are:
- INAKUSTIK BFA-103 HOLLOW BANANA REFERENCE RHODIUM
- INAKUSTIK BFA103 - ANGLED 45° - HOLLOW BANANA REFERENCE RHODIUM
- WBT 0610 CU NEXTGEN™ - PLASMAPROTECT™ BANANA PLUG
- WBT-0610 AG NEXTGEN™ BANANA PLUG
Cheap and Chinese plugs that are rhodium-plated often (always always!) have a nickel layer underneath the rhodium plating. The reason is simple, rhodium is expensive. A wafer-thin (and therefore cheap) rhodium layer on nickel looks real and flaws and wear are not visible. On copper, with such a thin rhodium layer, you can quickly spot flaws in the coating and wear.
When it comes to soldered hollow bananas, all uncoated ones were made of copper and all silver-plated ones were nickel-free and non-magnetic. All gold-plated ones were magnetic.
All gold-plated ferrules I have had in my hand so far (5 different manufacturers/sources) have been magnetic.
Of course, that doesn't mean that there aren't other gold-plated or rhodium-plated plugs that are nickel-free and non-magnetic. However, you should get away from the idea of finding this in cheap plugs, as both coatings without nickel are x times more expensive, even more expensive than the actual plug.
Unfortunately I have to correct myself.
Yesterday I grabbed a measurement technician and wanted to continue with measurements regarding cables with magnetic and non-magnetic connectors. However, the measurements of the Inakustik plugs did not match the expected results.
Unfortunately, the fact is that the rhodium-plated Inakustik plugs are also slightly magnetic.
I needed a stronger neodymium magnet to determine this, but it appears to be a thin layer of nickel or a magnetic alloy.
Sorry @amper42 for the misinformation
I'm slowly running out of options for the non-magnetic screwed hollow bananas.
I also have the same problem with RCA plugs.
If anyone knows of good quality and completely non-magnetic RCA plugs, including the housing, I would be very grateful for information.
With regard to this statement in particular, I would like to point out the human factor, which is almost never taken into account.
People don't perceive differences the same way, regardless of audio, food, drink, quality, smells, textures, etc.
These differences can be small or unnoticeable for one person, while for other people they are worlds in between. I have noticed this again and again throughout my life.
I always found that interesting with wine and beer. While it took off my shoes, twisted my toenails and was simply undrinkable, others found it "tasty".
This explains at least part of the discrepancies and why impacts are assessed so differently.
The other part is of course influence and imagination, which I have experienced just as often.
The same problems that we have in audio comparisons and blind tests also exist in wine tastings. I was once surprised that I liked a French house wine better than a very expensive and award-winning wine. Funnily enough, at a large blinded wine competition 1 year later, with 5000 different wines, the same thing came out. That calmed me down.
With regard to this statement in particular, I would like to point out the human factor, which is almost never taken into account.
People don't perceive differences the same way, regardless of audio, food, drink, quality, smells, textures, etc.
These differences can be small or unnoticeable for one person, while for other people they are worlds in between. I have noticed this again and again throughout my life.
I always found that interesting with wine and beer. While it took off my shoes, twisted my toenails and was simply undrinkable, others found it "tasty".
This explains at least part of the discrepancies and why impacts are assessed so differently.
The other part is of course influence and imagination, which I have experienced just as often.
The same problems that we have in audio comparisons and blind tests also exist in wine tastings. I was once surprised that I liked a French house wine better than a very expensive and award-winning wine. Funnily enough, at a large blinded wine competition 1 year later, with 5000 different wines, the same thing came out. That calmed me down.
True for food tasting and of course acoustic perception. But to determine whether a slightly magnetic plug changes an electrical signal is something other, it should be measurable. When almost no current flows like line level connections then there may be a negligible magnetic effect. It could be different when strong current like in loudspeaker connectors flow and then it could be probably measurable. If one imagines which path a electrical signal from the microphone took through many wires and connectors and internal integrated circuit traces which will be of various materials then I doubt that one connection at the end of line will make real difference.
The experts in the known thread got the fault of the ferromagnetic material right away,as a well known phenomenon.
And 30db difference is no joke,audible or not,else one would be ok with a much lower SINAD amp (where the selling point is exactly that)
It would be nice to know which ones are actually up to the task.
The experts in the known thread got the fault of the ferromagnetic material right away,as a well known phenomenon.
And 30db difference is no joke,audible or not,else one would be ok with a much lower SINAD amp (where the selling point is exactly that)
It would be nice to know which ones are actually up to the task.
Which thread do you mean? Of course ferromagnetic material can have influence, the question is how much in relation to the signal. Further, what is with the loudspeaker voice coil? It is surrounded by magnetic material and why not take care of this?
Which thread do you mean? Of course ferromagnetic material can have influence, the question is how much in relation to the signal. Further, what is with the loudspeaker voice coil? It is surrounded by magnetic material and why not take care of this?
This is review and detailed measurements of the Buckeye 3 Channel Purifi amplifier based power amp. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and costs US $1,699. As you see, the case is utilitarian. The amplifier is extremely light making you think there is nothing in the box! The back...
This is a second review of the Buckeye 3-Channel Purifi based balanced class D amplifier. First sample had an issue with its binding posts increasing distortion. It costs US US $1,595. Typical of Buckeye amplifiers, focus on what is inside rather the case which is utilitarian. An indicator...
www.audiosciencereview.com
You can tell the difference only by looking at the panthers.,the only thing changed is the binding posts connection.
OK, seems to be true for this case with high current flow. As the power sweep chart shows the distortion at low currents 2W are the same between the both versions. Thats is what I said. Voltage swing with low or no current does not create a magnetic field. Since I can not afford a state of the art AP analyzer I can not make such measurement to prove my thought. If somebody may spend such equipment with a lowest distortion power amp to me then I could make these.
OK, seems to be true for this case with high current flow. As the power sweep chart shows the distortion at low currents 2W are the same between the both versions. Thats is what I said. Voltage swing with low or no current does not create a magnetic field. Since I can not afford a state of the art AP analyzer I can not make such measurement to prove my thought. If somebody may spend such equipment with a lowest distortion power amp to me then I could make these.
Agree too. I have no problem with non magnetic materials if somebody wants to use them. But if this was generalized as always true regarding sound quality so I doubt this., especially at very low current usage like rca and XLR connectors. In case of the Japanese friend here with horn speakers and dedicated multipath amplification the mid and high range speaker currents will be low.
Further thought, where was it proved that the Bucheye distortion was caused by magnetic effect? It could also be from hetero material combinations which may cause due to impurities some resistance changeing effects like as is known from hard loaded film and composite resistors.
Sorry, my english is not native.
There is another factor to consider - in the buckeye case, I think the steel was carrying all the current (it was - if I remember correctly a steel based tab connecting between wire and post)
In the case of banana plugs with a copper or brass base, and a ferromagnetic nickel plating under the gold - say at a typical 2um thickness, it is going to be carrying a tiny proportion of the current. Approximately in the region of 0.2% based on the cross sectional area of the nickel vs the copper with a 4mm banana plug. (Ignoring different resistivity of the metals)
So what current do you think the banana plug would need to be carrying for enough of it to go through the plating layer to be the equivalent of the Buckeye measurements?
EDIT - % figure corrected (Mixed mm dimensions with m dimensions.)
There is another factor to consider - in the buckeye case, I think the steel was carrying all the current (it was - if I remember correctly a steel based tab connecting between wire and post)
In the case of banana plugs with a copper or brass base, and a ferromagnetic nickel plating under the gold - say at a typical 2um thickness, it is going to be carrying a microscopic proportion of the current. Approximately in the region of 0.0001% based on the cross sectional area of the nickel vs the copper with a 4mm banana plug. (Ignoring different resistivity of the metals)
So what current do you think the banana plug would need to be carrying for enough of it to go through the plating layer to be the equivalent of the Buckeye measurements?
Good assumption but unless we measure and compare we don't know.
Usually I would suspect the edges of the connectors as they're exposed but that's also an assumption.
What we do know is all sorts of problems related to speaker connections when Amir measures and he usually reports them (tightness,the above thread,etc).
Using high power amps I prefer being on the safe side though and I don't care if it will cost 1 or 1000 euro (i exaggerate but you get the point).
At least in my setup (ref. here), based on my actual tuning practices/experiences, even with the relatively low currents for midrange-squawkers (Beryllium cone) tweeters (Beryllium cone) and metal-horn super-tweeters all of them dedicatedly driven by each of the HiFi amplifiers, I assume (or even believe) the ferromagnetic effect do "matter" more or less on audible sound quality.
Consequently I feel this company's approach and product policy on thier their (HiFi?) SP selectors, for example, are feasible and rational. https://audiodesign.co.jp/HAS/HAS-3S.html
There is another factor to consider - in the buckeye case, I think the steel was carrying all the current (it was - if I remember correctly a steel based tab connecting between wire and post)
In the case of banana plugs with a copper or brass base, and a ferromagnetic nickel plating under the gold - say at a typical 2um thickness, it is going to be carrying a microscopic proportion of the current. Approximately in the region of 0.2% based on the cross sectional area of the nickel vs the copper with a 4mm banana plug. (Ignoring different resistivity of the metals)
So what current do you think the banana plug would need to be carrying for enough of it to go through the plating layer to be the equivalent of the Buckeye measurements?
At least in my setup, based on my actual tuning practices, I assume even with the relatively low currents for midrange-squawkers tweeters and metal horn super-tweeters, the ferromagnetic effect do "matter" more or less on sound quality.
Hi, yes it was you. I agree non-magnetic is of course basically better in order to reduce all known and unknown effects. But the question stays whether it is measurable and perceiveable? And the voicecoil within magnetic material you can not change this if not use a different type like electrostatic speakers. OK, it is not the same when current flows through the magnetic material vs. current flows in a copper wire with magnetic material near by. And I think but cannot prove that the magnetic material itself is the problem not the magnetic effect.
OK, it is not the same when current flows through the magnetic material vs. current flows in a copper wire with magnetic material near by. And I think but cannot prove that the magnetic material itself is the problem not the magnetic effect.
Regarding the specific issue we are discussing here, I basically do not care which is which, and also do not care about any possible scientific evidences for these, since my approach here on the specific issue is rather practical and empirical aiming towards better/best total sound quality with my audio rig.
In this perspective, I agree with @Sokel's point of "Why not be in the safe side then?", as far as we can do so with reasonable costs, efforts and time...
Regarding the specific issue we are discussing here, I basically do not care which is which, and also do not care about any possible scientific evidences for these, since my approach here on the specific issue is rather practical and empirical aiming towards better/best total sound quality with my audio rig.
In this perspective, I agree with @Sokel's point of "Why not be in the safe side then?", as far as we can do with reasonable costs, efforts and time...
