Recommended F3 for Rock Music

[Henryk]

Hello!

The majority of my listening is to rock music.
What F3 value should I look for in a speaker to make sure it can reproduce all the bass tones?

If the music changes to jazz or classical, would that change the recommended F3?


Thanks in advance!

 

[RayDunzl]

Opinion:

40Hz for normal bass (4 string bass guitar and viol)

30 Hz for extended (5 string bass guitar, giant drums, modern sub-bass synth or such)

As low as you can get for low low stuff (bumps and thumps and rumbles and some organ notes - seen 16 Hz here)

--

Ported or sealed?

---

Drag some of your tunes into the RTA window of REW and see where the bottom is...

Daft Punk - RAM - track 1

Large Jazz Ensemble

(shoulda used dBfs scale above, but forgot. Doesn't change the slopes)

Here's that organ piece in this format

 

[Henryk]

Opinion:

40Hz for normal bass (4 string bass guitar and viol)

30 Hz for extended (5 string bass guitar, giant drums, modern sub-bass synth or such)

As low as you can get for low low stuff (bumps and thumps and rumbles and some organ notes - seen 16 Hz here)

--

Ported or sealed?

---

Drag some of your tunes into the RTA window of REW and see where the bottom is...

Daft Punk - RAM - track 1

View attachment 319383

Large Jazz Ensemble

View attachment 319385

(shoulda used dBfs scale above, but forgot. Doesn't change the slopes)

Here's that organ piece in this format

View attachment 319387

The speaker I'm looking at has an F3 of 52 Hz and yet many reviews claim that you don't need a subwoofer even for rap music (which I assume to have even lower bass than rock). Am I missing something?

Also, on that Daft Punk song, there is no bottom!
The jazz example looks to be 25 Hz; am I reading that right?

 

[rynberg]

The speaker I'm looking at has an F3 of 52 Hz and yet many reviews claim that you don't need a subwoofer even for rap music (which I assume to have even lower bass than rock). Am I missing something?

Also, on that Daft Punk song, there is no bottom!
The jazz example looks to be 25 Hz; am I reading that right?

No, you're not reading it right...

On the Daft Punk song, there is strong content to 40 Hz, a taper to 30 Hz and then a brick wall. The levels below 30 Hz are most likely noise and are too low to even hear, unless you are blasting the track at 110+ dB. On the jazz ensemble track, there is only reasonably strong content down to 50 Hz.

The Lintons are about as full-range as you are going to get at that price point. In Erin's formerly good-sized room, they were solid down to 40 Hz. The anechoic F3 may be 50 Hz, but there is a pretty slow roll-off below that to below 30 Hz. Again, for the price point, I don't think you are going to do better than the Lintons if full-range sound is the goal. I don't believe in not using a subwoofer, so I'm not going to comment any further on that.

 

[Henryk]

No, you're not reading it right...

On the Daft Punk song, there is strong content to 40 Hz, a taper to 30 Hz and then a brick wall. The levels below 30 Hz are most likely noise and are too low to even hear, unless you are blasting the track at 110+ dB. On the jazz ensemble track, there is only reasonably strong content down to 50 Hz.

The Lintons are about as full-range as you are going to get at that price point. In Erin's formerly good-sized room, they were solid down to 40 Hz. The anechoic F3 may be 50 Hz, but there is a pretty slow roll-off below that to below 30 Hz. Again, for the price point, I don't think you are going to do better than the Lintons if full-range sound is the goal. I don't believe in not using a subwoofer, so I'm not going to comment any further on that.

Okay, now I see what you're saying with those graphs!

I've been learning how to interpret speaker data recently.
It can be a bit confusing for a newcomer.

Thanks for your patience and clarification

I've heard that - as far as music-only listening goes - it's best to have the sound coming from as few point sources as possible. That's why the Elac DBR62 features the tweeter so close to the woofer, and also why bi-flex speakers that Altec used in the 70's were so popular. They produced the widest range of frequencies in one point source, helping the music seem natural. Some say that adding a subwoofer - a third, separate, bass-only source - is best reserved for home theater.
Is there evidence to the contrary?

 

[PeterNL]

No, you're not reading it right...

On the Daft Punk song, there is strong content to 40 Hz, a taper to 30 Hz and then a brick wall. The levels below 30 Hz are most likely noise and are too low to even hear, unless you are blasting the track at 110+ dB. On the jazz ensemble track, there is only reasonably strong content down to 50 Hz.

The Lintons are about as full-range as you are going to get at that price point. In Erin's formerly good-sized room, they were solid down to 40 Hz. The anechoic F3 may be 50 Hz, but there is a pretty slow roll-off below that to below 30 Hz. Again, for the price point, I don't think you are going to do better than the Lintons if full-range sound is the goal. I don't believe in not using a subwoofer, so I'm not going to comment any further on that.

Here are my Lintons:

 

[Henryk]

Here are my Lintons:View attachment 319515View attachment 319516

Thank you for the real-life results!

If I'm not mistaken, it looks like you're getting some decent output even below 30 Hz.
Do you find that you can do without a subwoofer for the majority of your music listening?

 

[dominikz]

I've heard that - as far as music-only listening goes - it's best to have the sound coming from as few point sources as possible. That's why the Elac DBR62 features the tweeter so close to the woofer, and also why bi-flex speakers that Altec used in the 70's were so popular. They produced the widest range of frequencies in one point source, helping the music seem natural. Some say that adding a subwoofer - a third, separate, bass-only source - is best reserved for home theater.
Is there evidence to the contrary?

That is often claimed by audio enthusiasts but to my knowledge there is no evidence to support this hypothesis.
It is of course important that loudspeakers are designed well (flat on-axis, smooth directivity, reasonably low distortion at required SPL), and this we can see from spinorama and other supporting measurements.
It is true that coaxial speakers have smoother vertical directivity, but to my knowledge no research has so far determined this to be universally more preferred.
Similarly, subwoofers that are well-integrated cannot be localized and blend perfectly with the mains - regardless whether the source are movies or music
I personally wouldn't want to go back to 2.0 anymore after having added subs to both my systems.

 

[DVDdoug]

I've heard that - as far as music-only listening goes - it's best to have the sound coming from as few point sources as possible.

The main thing is that the distance from your ears is the same for the woofer & tweeter (and midrange in a 3-way). A distance-difference makes a time-difference and the time-difference makes a phase-difference. Let's say you have a crossover frequency of 2kHz. The wavelength is about 7 inches. If one speaker is 1/2 Wavelength closer or further from you ear, the soundwaves will be 180 degrees out of phase and they will cancel. At 4kHz they would be 360 degrees out-ot-phase, so back-in phase. Of course with a crossover there is only a narrow frequency range where both drivers are putting-out the same intensity, so it's most-important at the crossover frequencies.

This why the drivers are normally mounted vertically. The distance to both drivers is the same as you move across the room. If you turn the speaker on it's side, the angle changes as you move across the room and you can get interference/cancelation at certain positions. The vertical angle between sitting and standing is more constant and less of a problem.

That's why the Elac DBR62 features the tweeter so close to the woofer, and also why bi-flex speakers that Altec used in the 70's were so popular. They produced the widest range of frequencies in one point source, helping the music seem natural.

There are LOTs of variables and trade-offs in speaker design and you can't really focus on one thing. Most good speakers and studio monitors are "traditional" 2-way or 3-way designs so I assume that's what usually works best and gives you the most for your money.

Some say that adding a subwoofer - a third, separate, bass-only source - is best reserved for home theater.

Again, compromises & trade-offs. If you have full-range speakers with big-enough woofers to put out deep-powerful bass you don't need a sub. And it can be tricky to properly integrate a sub if you don't have an AVR.

If you listen "loud", you'll probably benefit from a sub. It's not only the cut-off frequency but how much loudness you can get at the low-frequencies before the speaker (or amplifier) distorts.

A home theater needs a subwoofer or else you loose the "point one" LFE channel and you only get the "regular bass". AVRs have an option of just sending the LFE to subwoofer or re-routing the bass from the other channels to the sub ("bass management"). Since most people don't have multiple large surround speakers that can reproduce deep bass, usually they choose the option of routing all of the bass to the sub.



BTW - Most "pro" subwoofers used with live music and in dance clubs are tuned down to around 40Hz. That's low enough for bass you can feel in your body. When you go lower, you tend to loose efficiency (over the whole lower range, including above 40Hz) and you need more-bigger subs and more amplifier power to fill a large venue with strong bass. In a home setup it's more practical to go "all they way" down to 20Hz

 

[Kaameelis]

No, you're not reading it right...

On the jazz ensemble track, there is only reasonably strong content down to 50 Hz.

One jazz example, Bo Stief Dream Machine - Heart, part.

 

[Henryk]

Similarly, subwoofers that are well-integrated cannot be localized and blend perfectly with the mains - regardless whether the source are movies or music
I personally wouldn't want to go back to 2.0 anymore after having added subs to both my systems.

That's the impression I get too; They need careful integration to work well.
I'm quite new to in-depth audiophile stuff and I only listen to rock music, which doesn't seem to need much bass.
If I can get away with the simplicity of a full-range stereo speaker, that seems like my best bet.

And it can be tricky to properly integrate a sub if you don't have an AVR.

That - unfortunately - is my situation
I have a nice Bryston B60 amplifier which I want to make use of.
Buying an AVR isn't in the cards for me at the moment.

 

[dominikz]

That's the impression I get too; They need careful integration to work well.
I'm quite new to in-depth audiophile stuff and I only listen to rock music, which doesn't seem to need much bass.
If I can get away with the simplicity of a full-range stereo speaker, that seems like my best bet.

I mostly listen to rock and metal, and while neither is normally a bass-heavy genre, the kick drum fundamental can sometimes be in the 30Hz range.

However, benefits of a subwoofer are more than just additional LF extension - it can help you get better quality bass by allowing you to place it in a different position in the room compared to you main speakers, thereby reducing or even avoiding the very common SBIR induced bass-suckout in the 70-100Hz range (a bit more on this in the middle of this article by Genelec).
While full-range speakers are simpler to setup, a well-integrated sub can help you get a smoother bass response, even if LF extension is similar.
Here's one practical example of this.

 

[rynberg]

One jazz example, Bo Stief Dream Machine - Heart, part.
View attachment 319589

If that's acoustic jazz, I suspect the 26 Hz tone is noise, and not music related.

 

[Henryk]

I mostly listen to rock and metal, and while neither is normally a bass-heavy genre, the kick drum fundamental can sometimes be in the 30Hz range.

However, benefits of a subwoofer are more than just additional LF extension - it can help you get better quality bass by allowing you to place it in a different position in the room compared to you main speakers, thereby reducing or even avoiding the very common SBIR induced bass-suckout in the 70-100Hz range (a bit more on this in the middle of this article by Genelec).
While full-range speakers are simpler to setup, a well-integrated sub can help you get a smoother bass response, even if LF extension is similar.
Here's one practical example of this.

Thanks for those articles!
Genelec seems to be the real-deal, especially the way their monitors seem to review.

Makes me wonder if I should just save up for longer and get one of their products as an end-game, and be done

 

[RayDunzl]

If that's acoustic jazz, I suspect the 26 Hz tone is noise, and not music related.

It's a "drum sound", maybe with a synthesized sub-octave.

Drum down low, then everything else.

The tune...

 

[Kaameelis]

One more jazz what had peak lower than 50 Hz.
Patricia Barber, Regular pleasures

 

[ModDIY]

30-40 Hz

 

[Henryk]

30-40 Hz

I'm surprised just how much speaker is needed to play with an F3 in that 30-40 Hz range.
The Linton's can do it, the BMR monitor can, and a few 8" Genelec and Neumann studio monitors can.
That's about all I can see!

Are there any others you can suggest?

 

[radix]

I have the Revel F228be. they are very nice close-to-full-range speakers. I used them for a year or two without a sub and was happy. Then I added a sub (Arendal 1723 S1) and it did really help get better quality bass. I was also able to position the sub to minimize room nulls so it just sounded better.

In another thread, I made a posts about LF content in some songs, along with REW RTA plots showing the bass. This one is a rock/goth song, mostly drum in the LF.

Music with amazing sub bass. Anything goes.

Definition of bass is key here, to me: 10Hz - 20Hz = sub-bass (deep rumble) 20Hz - 40Hz is low bass (rumble) 40Hz - 80Hz is mid bass 80Hz - 150Hz is high bass (punch)

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[radix]

I'm surprised just how much speaker is needed to play with an F3 in that 30-40 Hz range.
The Linton's can do it, the BMR monitor can, and a few 8" Genelec and Neumann studio monitors can.
That's about all I can see!

Are there any others you can suggest?

I understand the desire to get full-range speakers. I went through that too and tried, without going crazy $$$. But I don't think it's practical for several reasons. BTW, look at Salk Sound (they are shutting down, but you can find them used).

Reason 1: It takes either a ton of power or a large box to get decent volume at 15-30 Hz. These will be very expensive. And quite a few of them are split into two boxes anyway (for highs and mids, then separate for lows).

Reason 2: The position will be wrong for your room geometry. Where you want your HF/Mid/high bass will be to have the right direction and early reflections for the main listening position. That will almost invariable not be the right place for the mid- to low- bass, which is very dependent on room modes (reflections and standing waves). You want to be able to position the bass in a different spot. You also likely want to run several (2-4) subs, each with mono feed.

There's discussion in other threads about the difference between a large sub (e.g. 15") moving air vs several 10" or 8". I think I fall into the larger-is-better camp, but that's my reaction to limited examples and not scientific. Opinion warning there.

Marc