Organist headphone question

[Skyl2aider]

Disclaimer, I saw some here and in the beginner section. If this is not the intended place please let me know so I can pull the thread.

I am a semi-professional organist. Due to noise concerns for the neighbours (not that they ever complained but I d rather prevent those) I practice with headphones when practicing at home. Currently I am using Beyer DT770 PRO. These are plugged straight into the instrument. Next year however I am replacing the instrument with a setup using an RME UCX II.

The DT770 PRO needs replacing because I find them tiring to use. It feels like the pressure is really high, and when pulling in a lot of stops the transparency yo my ears is just completely lost. It is negatively impacting my motivation recently so that is a clear indicator for them to go.

What is really important to me is:
a) Details. I want to hear the details of the different stops especially in small registrations. Some stops for example have very specific Reeds that rattle or flutes that have very specific blowing whiffing sounds and it is really nice to hear these details.
b) Additionally with big registrations, akin to having a big orchestra, I would really like it if the sound retains some openness. Though the organ doesn’t make it easy since you sometimes have up to 50 different sounds playing per key, and can be pressing 8-11 keys at the same time with some healthy reverb
c) The organ has a full range of stops from 16hz at the lowest of the lowest to 16-20khz at the highest of the highest options. Getting that into a headphone the same way my Subwoofer + monitor setup does is wishful thinking but I would like to get closer than my current headphones.

I think the organ sound can be quite comparable to a symphonic orchestra, but the sound can have a bit more body especially in the mids. A lot of headphones that are a bit cheaper and provided to me for trials struggle with that and then the mid section completely closes up when combining some stops as a result. The Beyerdynamic additionally really lacks the deeper bass sounds from the lower stops and the pedal board.

I have no knowledge of audio systems what's however. I’ve tried some other beyer dynamics because that is the brand they run in music stores i can visit but found them all unsatisfactory. Hopefully with all the knowledge in this forum there are some relevant recommendations to be made.

 

[solderdude]

Austrian Audio Hi-X60 may well be your best bet but has a somewhat high clamping force.
The slight brightness it has for hi-fi listening may well be a great feature for instruments.

 

[kemmler3D]

I'd recommend the Audeze LCD-XC for the bass performance and overall detail / clarity (it does 15hz undistorted which is actually viscerally disturbing... I mean this as a compliment to the headphone) but it's a closed can which you may not find very suitable based on your description. The LCD-X (open) might work but it needs more EQ for correct tonality.

At any rate I'd recommend headphones with low distortion. When you already have enough harmonics to fill the midrange, excessive distortion tends to make the mid-range sound congested and out of focus. I find this is noticeable in orchestral songs during louder passages.

 

[Curupira]

c) The organ has a full range of stops from 16hz at the lowest of the lowest to 16-20khz at the highest of the highest options. Getting that into a headphone the same way my Subwoofer + monitor setup does is wishful thinking but I would like to get closer than my current headphones.

I think the organ sound can be quite comparable to a symphonic orchestra, but the sound can have a bit more body especially in the mids. A lot of headphones that are a bit cheaper and provided to me for trials struggle with that and then the mid section completely closes up when combining some stops as a result. The Beyerdynamic additionally really lacks the deeper bass sounds from the lower stops and the pedal board.

The problem isn't getting full reproduction of the FR vs. speakers, is getting the physicality you get with your subwoofer. The DT770 actually has quite a substantial amount of bass, but it'll never impact your torso like the real instrument and monitors will, nor will any headphone.

Do you have a problem with in-ear monitors? If you don't, it'd be easier circumventing the clamp problem with them, while also being cheaper and more frequency response compliant. For them, the ubiquitous recommendation here is the Truthear Zero Red. A small problem might occur with your current setup, though: the Reds are susceptible to high impedance outputs, and if your instrument's headphone out has that, the earphones will sound more bassier than they actually are. This won't happen with the RME.

In full-size form, another option is the AKG K371 and K361, but their comfort will depend on your head and they're much less robust than the DT770 in construction.

The Fiio FT1 and the Sennheiser HD 490 might also suit your needs, although the FiiO is a bit bassier than what you would consider neutral, and the latter is a bit more expensive overall and less bassier than the DT770.

Here is the Frequency response for each mention except the K371. The dotted line is the Harman target, which research highlights as the preferable target for most people, based on what a good setup of flat monitor speakers will sound in a acoustically treated room.

I restricted myself to options that will deliver you neutrish tonality with a bass shelf (more bass than a flat line) without EQ. IF you can apply EQ to your monitoring in real time through a DAW or a RME solution, there will be a lot more options: the main difficulty here is getting the bass right out of the box.

 

[jkim]

I occasionally listen to organ music. It goes into really deep bass and indeed covers the entire frequency spectrum like orchestral music.

I once helped my son to choose headphones for his digital piano practice. I found that open-back headphones are better suited because being connected to the surrounding environment and hearing body movement (fingering and pedaling) gives a more natural feel.

Open-back planar magnetic headphones would be a great choice. The Hifiman HE400SE has very low distortion in the bass, for example. The RME UCX II has parametric EQ that can help correct headphone response if needed.

 

[respice finem]

I would try IEM, like the Zeros tested here:

Truthear x Crinacle Zero:RED IEM Review

This is a review, listening tests and detailed measurements of Truthear x Crinacle Zero:RED IEM. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $55. I was relieved that they are more mahogany/darker red than what the name implies. Compared to the previous Zero version, they are supposed to have...

www.audiosciencereview.com

TRUTHEAR x Crinacle Zero IEM Review

This is a review, listening tests and measurements of the Truthear Crinacle Zero IEM review. It was sent to me by @crinacle as he has been a consultant on the project. It costs US $50. I like that it has a bit of "bling" but not too much. The cord is just the right length for me (many IEMs...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Zero clamping force, very low distortion, and both good detail and good bass.
Not expensive either, but can be "picky" with eartips - for me the foam type work best and last long.

 

[staticV3]

Unironically, try IEMs.

The bass response is unmatched by headphones, and subjectively, I find quiet details like rattles more audible than with headphones.

The tricky part is finding an IEM+ear tip combo that fits the shape of your ears well, so that you can wear them comfortably for hours.

That part's just trial and error unfortunately.

Best IEM to start:

7Hz x Crinacle Zero:2 IEM Review

This is a review, listening tests, EQ and detailed measurements of the 7Hz x Crinacle Zero:2 IEM. It was kindly donated to me by a member and costs US $24.99. The cable is soft and longer than typical which I like. They take fair amount of effort to push it but then they make a reassuring...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Sound quality doesn't get meaningfully better regardless of price, so if they happen to fit well, then you may as well stop there.

 

[Skyl2aider]

Thanks for all the responses so far. I’ll check out these recommendations and see what they are like before responding to them. Specifically IEM’s would mean a tryout as I am not used to in ear listening devices because open headphones feel less tiring and more relaxing. I don’t mind the weight or some clamping.

@Curupira your comment about the bass of the DT770 PRO struck me a little bit because it was not my own observation, so i did some listening just now. What in my perception the Beyer lacks is a broad bass because what it gives you feels like a really narrow one. Not a foundation the music can “rest” upon but a narrow pole it needs to tightly balance itself on. The really low bits of the bass are there, but especially the bass stops of the organ are build on a lot of harmonics in what you could probably (questionmark?!) categorize part of the mid bass and high bass ranges, plus the fact that pulling more stops creates an effect in which the bass is being obscured.

The most common low tone on a pedalboard is 16.5 hz and these notes have a lot of body, not just the physical feel but the sound is very broad, a combination of base and harmonics/treble. ( see 19:34-39 of the video behind this link:

)

That foundation is lacking in the beyers. If a headphone sacrifices a bit of that really narrow deep bass but in exchange provides that nice broad foundation pretty well then I’d happily take such a tradeoff.

 

[markanini]

AKG 371 would suit you well unless you are in a warmer area, they are prone to sweating as any closed back, but for sure they have a light clamping force that you are looking for.

I'd additionally recommend Truthear Gate IEMs that I personally use for monitoring bass guitar. I'm positive the Gate's frequency response complements the organ, and the fit works well for most users.

IEMs are generally worth checking out as they fulfill isolation requirement and don't put pressure on your head. But IEMs come with their own caveats, picky about good fit or else you lose all bass and some mids. Some multidriver IEM alter the intended response without dedicated amplification. Lastly, IEM with excess bass and treble are common making many less ideal for instrument monitoring. That's why the Gate stands out as a much safer choice.

 

[respice finem]

Indeed they measure even better than the Zeros. And this for 17 $

Truthear GATE $17 IEM Review

This is a review, listening tests, EQ and detailed measurements of the Truthear GATE IEM. Money was kindly donated for me to purchase it from Amazon for US $17.59. Not much to say about them other than they fit my ears very comfortably with the largest silicone tips included. Let's see how it...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Curupira]

The really low bits of the bass are there, but especially the bass stops of the organ are build on a lot of harmonics in what you could probably (questionmark?!) categorize part of the mid bass and high bass ranges, plus the fact that pulling more stops creates an effect in which the bass is being obscured.

The most common low tone on a pedalboard is 16.5 hz and these notes have a lot of body, not just the physical feel but the sound is very broad, a combination of base and harmonics/treble. ( see 19:34-39 of the video behind this link:

Yes, the harmonics play a huge part of the final sound and timbre. I took the passage you mentioned and plotted it on a spectrum:

This shows that most of the energy of the pedal keys there are between 40 and 200 hz (remember this is logarithmic and that our hearing pretty bad with perceptual loudness on low-end, so a 20 dB difference isn't big, it's huge). Contrasting this with the DT770 response, below, shows us that while it does have the bass, it also has some shortcomings around 80hz that can be the reason you're finding the pitch weird.

On the rest of the spectrum, the DT770 is mostly there. It is also worth noting again that while the harmonics are a key part, as you've said, the region from 0 to 30 hz will be tough to replicate through headphones in fullness due to what I've said earlier. The transducer will replicate the sound in intensity, but you won't feel it fully as you would with a live organ or with subwoofers, and the feeling part is important because our hearing is pretty bad down there.

Having said that, any of the IEMs recommended here will produce down to 10-20hz with much more ease and less distortion than full-size headphones, given that you can get a proper seal with the provided eartips. Try static's recommendation and see how you like it.

 

[DVDdoug]

I don't have any specific recommendations.

Headphone "sound" is at least 95% frequency response. But we don't perceive headphones the same as speakers or sound in a room. Flat frequency response isn't normally desirable and there is a Target Curve. All of the reviews here compare the headphone's frequency response to the target.

Also with sound in the room, you can feel the bass in your body. You can't get that realism with headphones, but you can get strong-deep bass, and a lot more affordably than speakers, and without bothering your neighbors.

Unfortunately I don't see a DT770 review here. But looking through the Beyerdynamic reviews, most of them have a mid-bass bump-up, but are lacking in the deep bass range. And, none of them got a "recommended" rating.

Note that with headphones, there is very little correlation between sound quality and price. The AKG K371 ($150 USD) is highly rated for sound quality (but it has slightly excess bass compared with the target and it has a reputation for being fragile). That's just a possibility or suggestion, not a hard recommendation.

What is really important to me is:
a) Details. I want to hear the details of the different stops especially in small registrations. Some stops for example have very specific Reeds that rattle or flutes that have very specific blowing whiffing sounds and it is really nice to hear these details.
b) Additionally with big registrations, akin to having a big orchestra, I would really like it if the sound retains some openness. Though the organ doesn’t make it easy since you sometimes have up to 50 different sounds playing per key, and can be pressing 8-11 keys at the same time with some healthy reverb

These kinds of perceptions are difficult to define...

Usually you can hear more "little details" with headphones better than with speakers. When someone says a headphone or speaker is "detailed" I think of boosted highs. But Dan Clark (headphone manufacturer) says that headphones with more distortion are often described as "more detailed".

Reproducing many different sounds, or all of the instruments in an orchestra isn't a problem with headphones or speakers as long as they cover the full frequency range and go loud enough. What gets almost impossible "at home" or with headphones is to the sound of a room with good acoustics and natural reverb coming from all directions. And IMO, the amount of reverb that sounds wonderful in a music hall sounds bad and unnatural coming from a pair of speakers in your living room, or from headphones. But I do like to use a "hall" or "theater" setting on my home theater system to get some delayed reverb in the rear speakers and the "feel" of a bigger space.

The job of a headphone or speaker is to accurately reproduce the sound, no matter what it is. But organ has more deep-bass capability than most instruments so bass response might be more important. It seems very important to you!

I find them tiring to use. It feels like the pressure is really high

Comfort is a very personal thing. The most comfortable of headphones I own are a pair of Grado SR225's with some minor modifications. I have a small head so I added a foam spacer to bottom of the headband to it can rest on my head. Then I added aftermarket "L-Cush" cushions and that made them much more comfortable, fitting more around my ears in instead of on them. They are also light weight and open-back. Being able to hear through them makes me psychologically more comfortable. BUT thay DON'T have great sound quality. They are especially lacking in bass. There are fans "the Grado sound", and I think all of their headphones sound similar but they deviate quite a bit from the preference curve.

Another small, light, and open-back headphone is the Koss Porta Pro. It sits on the ears, but it has separate adjustable pads that transfer the pressure to your head. They are inexpensive but they get good reviews, and have been on the market for 40 years or something! But they are lacking in deep bass. I think most people, including me, use them as secondary-portable headphones.

So what I'm thinking is... If you can't find a pair good-sounding headphones that are comfortable for long periods of time, you might want a 2nd more comfortable pair. Just switching to something different may help. But personally, when I get tired wearing headphones I switch to speakers or just stop listening. (I generally prefer speakers anyway.)

 

[Skyl2aider]

Based on the replies, I think I made a mistake in my original question, when saying pressure I wasn’t pointing to clamp pressure but rather the “sound pressure” inside the cans.

A good deep bass indeed is important to me, I really dislike irl organs as well that lack a proper foundation, when playing it feels like i am building on a sand layer which inevitably collapses if you anything that ain’t really light. With headphones it doesn’t have to be incredibly bass heavy but I d like a really wide spectrum being relayed back in a neutral to slightly warm way. Definitely no muddying. here is a good example, from, the timestamp to 2:35 you can hear how the tenor line is whistling a bit, details like that is what I live for when playing the instrument.

. In destortion that gets lost. So what I am taking away so far is, look for headphones with decent bass, low distortion and low muddiness and perhaps also avoid the extra sibilance of the Beyer since that seems to be a thing with these headphones.

I have one other headphones in my house, a Beyerdynamic MMX-300 for my gaming rig. I noticed three things

a) rather than sound blasted directly into my ear from what feels a very short distance it is a bit more spatious and that generally is nice (is that what is called soundstage?)
b) when i put the DT770 on again it literally sounded like tin cans, incredibly bright no base at all. Whereas the MMX-300 on lower volumes were incredibly bass heavy and muffled the rest while on high volumes it was quite fine. (The MMX is also much quiter at the same gain settings).
c) When the sound isn't blaster into your ears from such a close range, closed earphones aren't as bad.

Gonna see if I can find a frequency reponse of the MMX to overlay on the DT.

EDIT found it

DT770

MMX-300

 

[Curupira]

I think what you're alluding to is listener fatigue rather than sound pressure, which in technical terms is simply volume (loudness).

Beyerdynamics are one of the worst offenders in this because of their treble forwardness. Inside the studio world, there is a line of thinking that elevated treble may help spotting nuances and defects. In music listening and prolonged use, however, that same characteristic is criminal, inducing an unnaturally thin sounding tonality and listener fatigue, specially if you have tinnitus. The open beyers are even worse at this because their lack of bass potentiate the bright tonality.

If your problem is with the high frequency shelf of the headphones, the solution is to either attenuate it or get a headphone/iem without those peaks.

A simple solution is offered as per @solderdude guide, simply cut a piece of toilet paper and put it in front of the driver, the more plies, the bigger the attenuation.

DT 880 Edition (250Ω)

back to Beyerdynamic back to measurements home published: Mar-12-2018, updated: Jul-26-2020 NO SMOOTHING is applied to the shown plots. Most measurement sites have some smoothing applied which ‘iro…

diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com

I've owned a DT880 and own a T1 1st gen and can attest to it's effectiveness, although I prefer using EQ on the latter because of the angled driver. Sai has measured the mod on your DT770 and it works quite well (look at the 5-10kHz range).

 

[solderdude]

Thanks for all the responses so far. I’ll check out these recommendations and see what they are like before responding to them. Specifically IEM’s would mean a tryout as I am not used to in ear listening devices because open headphones feel less tiring and more relaxing. I don’t mind the weight or some clamping.

@Curupira your comment about the bass of the DT770 PRO struck me a little bit because it was not my own observation, so i did some listening just now. What in my perception the Beyer lacks is a broad bass because what it gives you feels like a really narrow one. Not a foundation the music can “rest” upon but a narrow pole it needs to tightly balance itself on. The really low bits of the bass are there, but especially the bass stops of the organ are build on a lot of harmonics in what you could probably (questionmark?!) categorize part of the mid bass and high bass ranges, plus the fact that pulling more stops creates an effect in which the bass is being obscured.

The most common low tone on a pedalboard is 16.5 hz and these notes have a lot of body, not just the physical feel but the sound is very broad, a combination of base and harmonics/treble. ( see 19:34-39 of the video behind this link:

)

That foundation is lacking in the beyers. If a headphone sacrifices a bit of that really narrow deep bass but in exchange provides that nice broad foundation pretty well then I’d happily take such a tradeoff.

It isn't lacking in the Austrian Audio Hi-X60 (which goes down to 5Hz) but only with a perfect seal.
Another closed headphone that can do this is the OLLO S4R (if you can find one).
Also most planar headphones can easily reach those low frequencies but might require an amplifier.

The AA HiX60 and OLLO S4R can be driven by anything.

 

[jkim]

As I said earlier, unless you absolutely need isolation from environment, I believe open-back headphones are better suited because being connected to the surrounding environment and hearing body movement (fingering and pedaling) gives a more natural feel.

I do think planar magnetic headphones are well-suited. Not all planar magnetic phones can produce clean bass, though. For headphone amp requirement, note that these days electronics are cheap. You will have no problem finding a good headphone amp at a reasonable price.

Some Hifiman headphones should fit the bill. I tried a few Hifiman models and currently own the HE400SE and HE-560 V4. Both can produce exceptionally clean bass and extended treble. The HE-560 V4 has a bit more refined treble response, though.

 

[Skyl2aider]

Based on the Spectrum that @Curupira provided, headphones with a dip in the 50-200hz range would be a bad idea. Open ears for better contact with keys and pedals isn’t a thing for me because when performing in concert I usually get a good dosage of direct sound from all the pipes so I mostly play on touch / blind. I was expecting open ears to provide better sound, which it seems to do except for the bass. So I have to make up my mind what I find more important when studying my music or playing for my own enjoyment.

Seems like most of the open suggestions do not really improve in the bass department. Since I am located in Europe under customer protection and refund laws I might order some options to try. The FT1,
and D7200 so far stand out to me as possible options for closed ears and the FiiO AA HiX60, FT1 pro and HD650 as open ears. The AKG 371 was said to be a bit fragile which is not a word I want to hear when I use this thing daily for a few hours.

The LCD XC specifically is a bit expensive over here for my budget. That would only be an option if nothing else would come close and I could try it somewhere. Good to note that price and sound quality aren’t always going hand in hand.

 

[kemmler3D]

Based on the Spectrum that @Curupira provided, headphones with a dip in the 50-200hz range would be a bad idea. Open ears for better contact with keys and pedals isn’t a thing for me because when performing in concert I usually get a good dosage of direct sound from all the pipes so I mostly play on touch / blind. I was expecting open ears to provide better sound, which it seems to do except for the bass. So I have to make up my mind what I find more important when studying my music or playing for my own enjoyment.

Seems like most of the open suggestions do not really improve in the bass department. Since I am located in Europe under customer protection and refund laws I might order some options to try. The FT1, D7200 and AA HiX60 so far stand out to me as possible options. The AKG 371 was said to be a hit fragile which is not a word I want to hear when I use this thing daily for a few hours.

The LCD XC is a bit too expensive over here for my budget. That would only be an option if nothing else would come close and I could try it somewhere. Good to note that price and sound quality aren’t always going hand in hand.

The price on the XC is definitely steep but it has the cleanest bass I've heard anywhere, ever.

That said, I did just get a pair of those Truthear Gates and well... yeah, they punch above their weight to a pretty absurd degree. They might do the trick for you. If you EQ in a bass boost they might get close to the XC, they just won't look cool on your desk... The Zero Red is also very nice for the price.

Could be worth a try since if it doesn't work, you are out $15 and have some decent earphones for when you're on the train or something.

 

[Soandso]

O. Messiaen's [1908-1992, age 11 Paris Conservatory, 1931 St.Trinite Church's Cavalli-Coll organist, pictured below in 1940] organ compositions were just compared by me. Performed by J. Bate (see album screen shot) at the Trinity Church organ (the composer's own old recordings have quality issues) these were my examples: (1st) "Dieu Parmi Nous" starts with deep bass until 0:35 (with 0:23-0:26 holding); (2nd) "Jesus Accepte La Souffrance" ends with bass blending in among higher frequencies at 4:40 - 4:38; and (3rd) "Meditation Sur La Mystere de la Saint Trinite: V. Meditation V" toward the end at 10:12- 10:36 has high frequency oscillations.

I tested these Messiaen renditions without any EQ applied by comparing the shallow insertion "in ear" Stax electrostatic SR-003 headphone and also with a "orthodynamic" Yamaha planar magnetic headphone which fits around the ear. Both provided enjoyable listening, however in the above cited musical segments the electro-static Stax SR-003 sounded better. In 1st song segment above resolution was more precise, in the 2nd cited segment bass blended in nicely without overpowering the other frequencies, and in the 3rd cited segment the high frequency etherial oscillation could be heard 1/10th of a second sooner with the electrostatic than the planar dynamic.

My generalization is those Messiaen organ compositions in their entirety were presented with better timbre through an "in ear" electrostatic headphone than through a planar dynamic around the ear headphone. For orientation the reputation of electrostatic headphones generally being deficient in bass is not considered to be the case for the "in ear" Stax.

[Certainly this comparison is dissimilar because of the planar magnetic headphone's dynamic around ear susceptibility to concha resonance (~5,000 Hz), pinna reflection (~3,000 Hz), and "pinna notch" out of phase reflection (~10,000 Hz.) While the specifically designed very shallow placement "in ear" electrostatic used in comparison to an normally directly inserted into the ear canal electrostatic may, or may not, have comparatively more or less than the average adult male's 26 mm long average ear canal generated 1/4 wavelength resonance (~3,300 Hz) and it's resultant odd number integer multiples (10,000 and 16,500 Hz.)]

 

[Skyl2aider]

I ordered the Crinacle zero. I returned them. After trial I found the in ear thing causes fatigue on my end even on lower volumes. Plus my ears physically dislike it.

next try with be the FiiO Ft1 maybe together with the FiiO FT1 Pro. I ll report back how that goes and see from there.

P.s. I really appreciate the effort on the Messiaen, his music is quite different from the stuff I play on the organ, so I am a bit cautious to draw too strong conclusions from the observations of SoAndSo.