Quality Perception: ID vs Name Brand

[snapsc]

It is interesting to read all of the pro ribbon and anti ribbon commentary on this thread. If you read through the HiFi Compass tests, you can clearly see the pluses and minuses of the 70xr ribbon tested by itself as a stand alone unit. And if you look at the results that Dave publishes, you can see the 70XR when it is part of the complete speaker.

Maybe even more interesting is an interview with Eric Alexander from Tekton....in which he says that the single most important component in any speaker is the crossover (and maybe not the ribbon, the dome, the diamond, whatever?)

No doubt, ribbons, just like amt's, and domes, etc. have unique characteristics that not everyone will love. From my perspective...they won't play rock concert loud...their sweet spot is bigger than you think....that throw an enormous soundstage...they mate very well with other well chosen drivers, they don't have a lot of sibilant bite...but man are they clear.

You have to hear them in the speaker you are considering....Salk, Ascend, BMR, Selah...the main guys using a RAAL in the U.S., and if they don't float your boat...move on.

I like ribbons...but I've heard some great Be tweeters also (Ryan speakers)...so, I'm pretty sure its all about implementation...and how that works with the various reflections in your specific room.

 

[2DFlier]

It sounds like OP has already has a month to listen to both though — is that right? If so, I’m not exactly sure what the question is here.

The basic question was whether my perception of overall quality between Revel and Ascend products was consistent with others actual experience. Overall quality included SQ. My time with the 2 gives a slight SQ advantage to Revel but other factors are also important in any decision, which I’ll have to reconcile.

...there's such a huge difference in dispersion performance between a ribbon like the RAAL and a traditional woofer that integration is hard, regardless of driver size.

And this became a key part of the SQ conversation. My typical listening might be in the listening window where I may not pickup on the discontinuities but is certainly important to consider depending on a individual situation. I thank you all for this. This integration concern is one of many things I wasn’t aware of.

 

[Ron Texas]

I think I made my point. The very simple summary is, that I don't like ribbons. I understand that You can cope with a rattling Neumann KH310, bought new. You just love them as they are.

Here in Germany they cost 1800Euros (ca 2000$) per piece, amp included. With digital perfection it is only 2500Euros. Compared to true audiophile speakers, they are just cheap work horses.

I used to really like this forum, but impolite stuff like this is turning me away. You are giving the OP a hard time.

 

[echopraxia]

I used to really like this forum, but impolite stuff like this is turning me away. You are giving the OP a hard time.

Yeah, and not just the OP. He is giving everyone a hard time and generally being a troll.

 

[snapsc]

2d flyer....

No matter which speaker any of us prefers...there is always someone considering a change...if for no other reason than to try something different...Therefore, it would be interesting to have you explain what your heard as the difference between the two speakers..and do you think that there were room influences or equipment influences on those differences.

 

[echopraxia]

The basic question was whether my perception of overall quality between Revel and Ascend products was consistent with others actual experience. Overall quality included SQ. My time with the 2 gives a slight SQ advantage to Revel but other factors are also important in any decision, which I’ll have to reconcile.

Yeah it sounds like the Revel is for you. You mentioned that the Revels “disappear” into the room more, which may indicate you’re hearing the less ideal crossover of the 2EX in comparison. If you’re sensitive to that, maybe the Revels or other similar speakers are more to your preference.

If the only downside is the look and feel of inferior build quality, have you considered other brands, or is it just between those two? Does the look and feel bother you with the grill on?

Personally, with the grill on my Revel F206 I think it looks fine. And as long as you get a good one, I don’t imagine Revel is any more likely to break than other speakers.

 

[goldark]

The basic question was whether my perception of overall quality between Revel and Ascend products was consistent with others actual experience. Overall quality included SQ. My time with the 2 gives a slight SQ advantage to Revel but other factors are also important in any decision, which I’ll have to reconcile.



And this became a key part of the SQ conversation. My typical listening might be in the listening window where I may not pickup on the discontinuities but is certainly important to consider depending on a individual situation. I thank you all for this. This integration concern is one of many things I wasn’t aware of.

Sighted comparison and not exactly the same speakers so take my impressions for what it's worth, but I compared my Revel F206 vs. the Sierra 2-EX here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-s...essions-ascend-sierra-2-ex-vs-revel-f206.html

In short, I like the aesthetics of the F206 tower better but the S2-EX is definitely more solidly built. My expectation bias (and why I purchased the F206 to begin with) was that the Revel would sound better to me due to that company's textbook measurements (not that the S2-EX don't measure well http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRM2EX/srm2exmeas.html )

I found this not to be the case. The Ascends just sounded better to me. The Revels moved into the bedroom.

 

[GelbeMusik]

This integration concern is one of many things I wasn’t aware of.

People were not aware of it, when "ribbon" became legend. They went into competition with cone-tweeters, exp.-horns, while the dome tweeter still was to be invented. The best commonly available media was vinyl with very limited valuable content in the treble. Directivity was a non issue due to ignorance. The ribbon was said "to solve all problems" because of the lightweight diaphragm and so on. Some people went for it. It was a nightmare to work with them. A very short burst of low treble, and the ribbon was literally crumbled in chaotic turns. It reacted to the wind--slammed door=defect the same way and so on.

Todays demand is way higher in every direction, source, system integrity, taste, sustainability. And competition is way harder, with good to very good to brilliant domes--which don't have to have exotic materials, combined with true waveguides. Controlled directivity, narrow or wide is available for close to nothing in money and engineering with integrating them.

This, and persistent flaws with regular ribbons like distortion and directivity make me dismiss these loudspeakers. From the perspective of a so and so competent system designer. They actually are legend, for me, literally.

 

[vavan]

I compared my Revel F206 vs. the Sierra 2-EX here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-s...essions-ascend-sierra-2-ex-vs-revel-f206.html

apparently there wasn't opportunity to measure those speakers?

 

[2DFlier]

2d flyer....
...it would be interesting to have you explain what your heard as the difference between the two speakers..and do you think that there were room influences or equipment influences on those differences.

Way back when below is how I described the SQ difference. Other than the furniture and clutter typical of a multi-use space, the room is an untreated, asymmetric mess. I do think the room - perhaps first reflections? - is affecting what I'm hearing but equipment and source are the same.

The slight M105 edge I heard was a subtle shift in a soft cymbal to the outside of the actual speaker position. It was subtle but describes both the width and invisibility of the M105. Going back to a comment March made, I do wonder if I would hear it the same in a blind test.

Thinking about it in the context of all this conversation, I'm also wondering if this cymbal just happens to fall into that crossover region. I don't know but, putting an ear to both drivers in both speakers, I was surprised to hear how high in the frequency range the mid/bass drivers work.

If I understood correctly something I read recently, sound stage width is related to first reflections. If so, are these first reflections related to dispersion characteristics? If that's the case, dispersion has a lot more to do with overall SQ than just sweet spot width.

To my relatively inexperienced ears the sound quality compares very well in most all respects, which the spin data seems to suggest would be expected. The Sierra digs a bit deeper while the M105 has a slight edge in sound stage width and seem to be a bit more invisible. Base solely on overall sound quality the M105 has a slight advantage.

 

[2DFlier]

Yeah it sounds like the Revel is for you. You mentioned that the Revels “disappear” into the room more, which may indicate you’re hearing the less ideal crossover of the 2EX in comparison. If you’re sensitive to that, maybe the Revels or other similar speakers are more to your preference.

If the only downside is the look and feel of inferior build quality, have you considered other brands, or is it just between those two? Does the look and feel bother you with the grill on?

Personally, with the grill on my Revel F206 I think it looks fine. And as long as you get a good one, I don’t imagine Revel is any more likely to break than other speakers.

As described above I am also wondering if the crossover is affecting what I'm hearing. Fascinating stuff.

I rarely run with grills off and actually like the M105 appearance. Revel WAF is actually much higher but that's mainly because she prefers black to coordinate with everything else and small so she doesn't have to look at it. Presumably it's my choice - yeah right - which is why I ordered the S2EX in natural and part of the reason it went back.

I'm not locked into either brand or model but quickly focused on these two because of their spin data, reviews, and initial listening. I actually also auditioned the Dynaudio Evoke 10, Paradigm Prestige 15B, and Aperion Verus III Grand bookshelf. None of them received the scrutiny the M105 or S2EX got. Of those 3 I'd reconsider the Evoke 10 but I haven't found any good measurements to compare them.

Sighted comparison and not exactly the same speakers so take my impressions for what it's worth...

Your review is actually what brought me to ASR in the first place. I read it with great interest and found it to be very helpful. Thank you.

 

[2DFlier]

People were not aware of it, when "ribbon" became legend. They went into competition with cone-tweeters, exp.-horns, while the dome tweeter still was to be invented. The best commonly available media was vinyl with very limited valuable content in the treble. Directivity was a non issue due to ignorance. The ribbon was said "to solve all problems" because of the lightweight diaphragm and so on. Some people went for it. It was a nightmare to work with them. A very short burst of low treble, and the ribbon was literally crumbled in chaotic turns. It reacted to the wind--slammed door=defect the same way and so on.

Todays demand is way higher in every direction, source, system integrity, taste, sustainability. And competition is way harder, with good to very good to brilliant domes--which don't have to have exotic materials, combined with true waveguides. Controlled directivity, narrow or wide is available for close to nothing in money and engineering with integrating them.

This, and persistent flaws with regular ribbons like distortion and directivity make me dismiss these loudspeakers. From the perspective of a so and so competent system designer. They actually are legend, for me, literally.

Very interesting. I do appreciate this perspective to help understand your bias against ribbons. I'm coming to understand the many material choices and variety of driver options have their place in people's preferences and listening environments.

 

[snapsc]

I'm not locked into either brand or model but quickly focused on these two because of their spin data, reviews, and initial listening. I actually also auditioned the Dynaudio Evoke 10, Paradigm Prestige 15B, and Aperion Verus III Grand bookshelf. None of them received the scrutiny the M105 or S2EX got. Of those 3 I'd reconsider the Evoke 10 but I haven't found any good measurements to compare them.

To my way of thinking, the measurements/spin get you into the ballpark...in other words, they can eliminate a lot of frustrated looking. But, the actual final speaker, the one that speaks to you the most is matter of how it mates with the room, how it mates with your music preferences and how it mates with your equipment. And the only way you know is by trying...but I'm quite certain that the speaker that measures the best may not end up being the one that sounds the best.

All that being said, a lot of us don't keep equipment forever...or maybe for even more than a few years and for me, that means leaning toward choices that have easier resales with higher prices. The Ascend, the Revel and the Evoke should all score pretty well on that front.

 

[CDMC]

I'm not locked into either brand or model but quickly focused on these two because of their spin data, reviews, and initial listening. I actually also auditioned the Dynaudio Evoke 10, Paradigm Prestige 15B, and Aperion Verus III Grand bookshelf. None of them received the scrutiny the M105 or S2EX got. Of those 3 I'd reconsider the Evoke 10 but I haven't found any good measurements to compare them.

I would like to hear what you thought about the Evoke 10s.

 

[CDMC]

Why does it have to be a pissing contest about whether ribbons or domes are better? There are tradeoffs with each design and at the end of the day, it is the implementation and personal preference that becomes far more important. I love the ribbons I have, they get loud without distortion, and don't have a narrow vertical range, because they are nearly 6 feet tall. The tradoff is there is the comb filtering that occurs horizontally with the midranges and bass panels (Magnepan 3.5s). I also love the dome tweeters in the Dynaudio X12 speakers I have on my desktop. By contrast, the Salk Song 3s I have just don't cut it for me (they and the room don't get along and I like a fatter midbass).

It seems like people often forget there is more than one solution to most problems, a few examples:

• Class A/AB v. D v. G v. H. All work wonderfully when properly designed. There is no best design.
• Multibit v. Bitstream- Two solutions to the same problem, both of which have tradeoffs and work well.
• Planar v. cone v. ribbon v. electrostat v. compression driver- All have their tradeoffs and all can be made to sound very good.
• Vented v. Sealed enclosures- Again, tradeoffs and both properly implemented work well.
• Cone and Dome Material- paper, poly, ceramic, aluminium, titanium, diamond, silk, the list goes on. Again, it is about the execution and picking the tradeoffs.

To me, when a person has concluded carte blanche that one is better than the other, it just signifies that the person has closed their mind to the possibility that designs and implementations evolve. Isn't the most important part of any hypothesis understanding and accepting that it must be consonantly tested to see if it continues to hold true? When we don't do that and keep and open mind, progress stops.

 

[GelbeMusik]

... whether ribbons or domes are better? There are tradeoffs with each design and at the end of the day, ... When we don't do that and keep and open mind, progress stops.

Which of these tradeoffs are present with domes, especially when waveguided, but not with ribbons?

 

[CDMC]

Which of these tradeoffs are present with domes, especially when waveguided, but not with ribbons?

Sorry, but I am not going to entertain you. You have made it clear from your posts, you are only interested in arguing that your position is the one and only acceptable position.

 

[aarons915]

Which of these tradeoffs are present with domes, especially when waveguided, but not with ribbons?

I actually agree with you for the most part but to be fair, the biggest tradeoff with domes, especially with waveguides, is the narrower dispersion relative to a small ribbon like the RAAL 64-10.

 

[GelbeMusik]

... biggest tradeoff ... narrower ... relative to ...

So what about numbers? Any example? It's Your point, please make it.

 

[aarons915]

So what about numbers? Any example? It's Your point, please make it.

Sierra 2 relative to any speaker measured on this site so far, take your pick...