Reliability and build quality of Chinese Vs. Western Amps and DACs? Can you reliably get 15+ years out of a Topping Stack? Or SMSL? Singxer?

[Quinton595]

The serviceability of multilayer printed circuit boards of recent years with 90%+ SMD components and BGA chips is practically zero.
You initially make a choice of quality, or throw it away in case of breakdown after warranty.

Here's what I consider a 100% serviceable board:
View attachment 366535

Oh man, that's beautiful to me. I've used some PCB prototyping boards before when making some photography lights... I don't know what it is, but the perfect grid alignment of components just makes my brain feel like its getting a nice itch scratched.

I'd love to know which stack you guys would vote for, for me. I think I'm just trying to choose between the JDS Element III Mk 2, and a Modius / Jotunheim 2 stack from Schiit.

[ POLL ] [ Final Thread, I Promise ] - Which of the following stacks would you say is the overall best, most reliable, and therefore worth its cost?

Hello everyone, I promise this is my final post. You have all been very kind, and I don't want to take advantage of the community by spamming threads (more than I already have). With the community's help, I have narrowed a choice of amp and DAC stacks to a few brands, For use with Sennheiser...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[johny_2000]

I don't know what it is, but the perfect grid alignment of components just makes my brain feel like its getting a nice itch scratched.

This is Dolby's first product, the model A301, 1966. Used a circuit design that reduced tape noise by compressing and then expanding audio signals.

 

[wwenze]

The serviceability of multilayer printed circuit boards of recent years with 90%+ SMD components and BGA chips is practically zero.
You initially make a choice of quality, or throw it away in case of breakdown after warranty.

Here's what I consider a 100% serviceable board:
View attachment 366535

But if that board spoils do you know how to fix it

Repairability is a balance between production cost savings / design requirements and repair costs. In a world where wages are $300 a day and housing costs 1/4 of that, spending time to repair has poor economics, not to mention the logistical costs which are getting high. Make something small and dump it even before it fails. Bad for the planet, but when people are struggling to survive while being packed in sardine subways only those with the time and money can take a plane to NYC to say "how dare you".

 

[MaxwellsEq]

No, that is me. I have always maintained threads on ASR, Head-Fi, and Reddit.

The three communities are very different from one another, as each values different things. ASR values objectivity and measurements, Head-Fi values subjectivity and experiences, and Reddit values frugality and is more of an "everyman" forum. Each has provided interesting and unique insight to the various threads and questions I have posted over the last few weeks.

While the three forums often disagree strongly with each other, there are also areas in which all three forums achieve total consensus. It is this consensus that is most useful. By cross-referencing these three bodies of audio enthusiasts against each other, I am able to more rigorously identify what is actually true.

For example, while Head-Fi is very strongly in the camp of believing that different amps and DACs can impart totally different sound signatures to a given pair of headphones, with different "synergies" and such, ASR tends to be a lot more skeptical of that, so long as we're talking about competently-made products with good SINADs and other such measurements. However, both forums agree strongly that "balanced" audio is little more than a marketing gimmick for most use-cases, and that any well-produced piece of source equipment should run just fine, whether balanced, or single-ended.

All three forums have been very useful to me.

Balanced working for line-level and lower interconnects is always measurably beneficial. This is how all studios are wired - to eliminate the risk of ground loops and to minimise noise. I don't know any engineer or academic who doesn't think this is the case. Whether it's necessary at home depends on the local environment.

"Balanced headphone" working is wrongly named and (except for one or two rare, extreme headphones) is not necessary unless the headphone amplifier is insufficiently powerful when operated single ended.

 

[solderdude]

In its boosted configuration, it should have enough power for the HD800s with a - 15 dB preamp EQ, at 115dB peak output.

With -15dB pre-amp it is paramount you buy an amplifier that has a high gain option IF you want to play loud every now and then.
So a +10 to +15dB gain setting at least.

Longevity and build quality will be very similar. Longevity is a matter of being lucky and a good volume control and audio related switches/relays.
As with any new design only time will tell if you made the correct call.

 

[Willem]

I don't know if $1400 CAD for an Adi-2 is really justified, compared to, say, the JDS Labs Element III Mk 2 for $700 CAD.

The measured performance is not better, of course. What you pay for is reliability, long lasting support, and features, and even more features.

 

[Willem]

I truly hate the way it looks

I quite like the looks: it is small, fairly minimalist, and the tactile quality is just perfect. Add a modern class D power amplifier with auto on/off that you can locate in a cupboard and you have a nearly invisible system. And as for the screen, I find it very useful, but you can change the colour or turn it off if you want to.

 

[somebodyelse]

There's a clue right there. Buy something like that from the used market.

It's from an era when they cared about how long it would last and built it accordingly. And the sound quality is just as good as the modern stuff.

The 'bathtub curve' of device failures is also a factor. The old ones on the used market now are the ones that made it past the 'early failure' stage. If you're lucky they haven't reached the 'late failure' rise yet, but they might be approaching it. Old PROMs losing their programming is a problem for older kit with microprocessors. I know some in the radio community are trying to archive good firmware images so failed ones can be repaired, but I haven't heard of an equivalent in audio circles.

 

[MRC01]

.

... In its boosted configuration, it should have enough power for the HD800s with a - 15 dB preamp EQ, at 115dB peak output.

With -15dB pre-amp it is paramount you buy an amplifier that has a high gain option IF you want to play loud every now and then.
So a +10 to +15dB gain setting at least.
...

I missed this. How does the HD800 need 15 dB for EQ? From what I've seen, all it needs is -4 dB Q=2 around 5.5 kHz to flatten the spike, and a +6 dB Q=0.5 low shelf from around 120 Hz to lift the attenuated bass. Roughly speaking, that is, a simple 2 band parametric EQ, overall -6 dB gain.

 

[Mart68]

The 'bathtub curve' of device failures is also a factor. The old ones on the used market now are the ones that made it past the 'early failure' stage. If you're lucky they haven't reached the 'late failure' rise yet, but they might be approaching it. Old PROMs losing their programming is a problem for older kit with microprocessors. I know some in the radio community are trying to archive good firmware images so failed ones can be repaired, but I haven't heard of an equivalent in audio circles.

Yeah nothing lasts forever but most proper amps and pre-amps from the last century can be repaired - were designed to be repaired.

Plus it's so much cheaper than buying new you can get a back-up one for whilst the first is in the shop.

New preamps have screens (for no good reason) and choc full of stuff to go wrong which either can't be fixed or would be uneconomic to fix Just like modern cars.

Landfill in under 20 years whilst classic Yamaha et al will sail on gloriously into the next century.

 

[CedarX]

I'd love to know which stack you guys would vote for, for me. I think I'm just trying to choose between the JDS Element III Mk 2, and a Modius / Jotunheim 2 stack from Schiit.

So now that the poll is closed, what did you buy in the end?

 

[Rolls]

For what it’s worth, I have owned a Topping D20 DAC since 2014 and it’s still going strong.

 

[VintageFlanker]

Problem with some cheap gear is not about themselves.
Is about what they can cause up and down the chain.

If their fault stay on them fine,but it's not fine at all if they burn speakers,headphones and deaf our ears,specially the later.

Good job there's no reports of any of that from Topping, SMSL, Fiio etc etc then.

I assume that you must be joking, right?

 

[Snoopy]

Western gear can also fail. But I consider myself lucky, never had anything fail on me from Chinese or western manufacturers (most of it made in china).

My SMSL gear (SP400 , D300) is still doing fine since day one. Also my Singxer SA1.

I can’t say anything bad about my Cambridge CXN v2 and CXA81 either. But Cambridge still offers firmware and software updates while having roon support and airplay always works.

The Cambridge stuff would still be good for reselling or a trade in. The Chinese stuff is more or less a doorstop at this point.

I wouldn’t spend RME money on topping or SMSL. But I might on Singxer or Cayin.

 

[Ste_S]

I assume that you must be joking, right?

Nope.

 

[oleg87]

The serviceability of multilayer printed circuit boards of recent years with 90%+ SMD components and BGA chips is practically zero.
You initially make a choice of quality, or throw it away in case of breakdown after warranty.

Most audio-type SMT boards are perfectly serviceable, just requires more skill with a soldering iron/heat gun/etc and better optics. BGAs are pretty out of the realm of what you can do at home, but luckily they're more the exception than the rule in DACs and can't imagine why an amp would need to use 'em.

 

[johny_2000]

BGAs are pretty out of the realm of what you can do at home, but luckily they're more the exception than the rule in DACs and can't imagine why an amp would need to use 'em.

Amplifiers, most likely not. But I've seen quite a few DACs that use BGA packages for DSP/FPGA/Network cores.
For example, RME and Mytek DACs use those components.

But simply replacing them is basically pointless. These are configurable chips, and the firmware for them is uploaded on assembly / factory lines.
They cannot be found in the public domain, and soldering an empty chip is a waste of time and money.

 

[Holmz]

At this point, thanks to everyone's feedback, I've narrowed it to either the Modius and Jotunheim 2, or the JDs Element III Mk2.

Don't know how to decide between them. Very good performance from both.

Maybe flip a coin?

(When I got the RME I did not need to flip a coin.)

 

[Roland68]

Most audio-type SMT boards are perfectly serviceable, just requires more skill with a soldering iron/heat gun/etc and better optics. BGAs are pretty out of the realm of what you can do at home, but luckily they're more the exception than the rule in DACs and can't imagine why an amp would need to use 'em.

@johny_2000 brings up a point that's been on my mind for a few months now.
There are no longer any spare parts for many good HiFi devices from this century, e.g. replacement boards for AVRs, CD players, amplifiers, etc. This also applies to devices costing 1000 or several thousand $/€ from e.g. Pioneer, Yamaha and many other large and small companies .
Even if you get the BGA, FPGA, etc., which is often no longer the case, you still lack the software/firmware to do so. And these companies don't release it, or it's been lost.

In the end, many of these devices, which are often built like tanks, end up on the scrap heap.

 

[Verig]

Topping 70 stack is very nice price/performance. That volume control alone is worth the price. Just buy local so that you don't have to ship anything to China yourself if something fails.
I wouldn't try to think 15-20 years here. It's simply unknown at the moment. But I don't think the 70's have had particularly bad press?

You don't like how RME looks, quite understandable, it was never meant as home hi-fi. If you don't need the eq (which alone is worth the price difference for some) and not ADC (if you needed this too it would be a no brainer) then just buy something else. Looks and feel are important.