Quality Perception: ID vs Name Brand

[echopraxia]

I understand that You can cope with a rattling Neumann KH310, bought new.

I’m sending them back for repair, of course. I never said a rattling Neumann was fine; I said it doesn’t prove Neumann is severely lacking in quality from just one anecdotal case. Just like one case of a broken tweeter in an Ascend speaker doesn’t prove Ascend is lacking in quality.

Compared to true audiophile speakers, they are just cheap work horses.

What? The Neumann KH310 are “cheap workhorses“ compared to “true audiophile speakers”? Are Genelec 8351B’s also just cheap workhorses in your view? Can you provide an example of such superior audiophile speakers you have in mind?

 

[napilopez]

Higher end--I don't get it?




Sure, and here my point is. There is no well implemented ribbon I know of. Very much more than the speculated QA/defect thing, the sheer presence of a ribbon would shy me away. As far as You bring the vertically very narrow dispersion into play, as an assessment, this can be had with waveguides, and much smoother so.

I reiterate my idea, that the Ascend is originally made to look better to the eye. And that look is payed for by questionable technical design, while not saying it is not successful, just questionable. Take care.

Of course it happens with every brand . Type "broken *insert speaker brand here* speaker " into Google and you'll quickly find results. If there aren't results it is only because the company has very few customers.

And by higher-end I mean that the 2EX is the newer, more expensive and more advanced update to the Sierra 2 that was reviewed here. They are different speakers with different woofers and different crossovers. Same ribbon, but the speaker around it is different.

Anyway, you don't like ribbons and that's fine. I don't have any particular affinity as I've only ever briefly heard one speaker with ribbons - too brief to make an assessment.

But I do like wide directivity, so I would counter that it is apparent wide directivity is a design goal with each of Ascend's speakers. I am aware of very few designs in the same price bracket with comparable extended wide horizontal directivity. Revel aims for wide directivity too, but their more affordable designs don't even come close to the RAAL ribbons in this respect. Only the ultimas have comparably wide directivity.

The only speakers I can think of with comparably wide directivity in the price range (up to 10kHz or so) are the Focal Chora and Aria. If you know of any others, I'd be glad to hear them =]. I'm always on the lookout for wide directivity designs.

My point is, I see no evidence Ascend chose ribbon tweeters because it "triggers people's desires to be special." Like anything in acoustics, it may come with compromises, but that doesn't invalidate it is as an legitimate acoustic choice. The goal was extended very wide directivity.

 

[2DFlier]

Going to suggest a third alternative, Salk Supercharged Surround. Same price range, has a larger raal tweeter that allows it to go lower, high quality drivers, beautiful enclosures, and the crossovers were designed by Dennis Murphy who designed your BMRs.

Thank you. This conversation got me thinking about other 2 way designs incorporating RAAL ribbons and whether or not there are any general criticisms of these 2 way configurations. Salk came to mind because of the association with Philharmonic so I did find the Supercharged Song. I didn't know Dennis designed the crossover. Knowing this may not alleviate all concerns but sure does go a long ways.

 

[richard12511]

When looking at small ID manufacturers vs larger dealer based manufacturers, generally speaking, I think there's probably a tradeoff between higher quality parts(cabinet, drivers, crossovers, ect.) and engineering/R&D.

Which is better probably depends, but evidence on this sight so far seems to show in favor of big brands.

 

[GelbeMusik]

Thank you. This conversation got me thinking about other 2 way designs incorporating RAAL ribbons and whether or not there are any general criticisms of these 2 way configurations.

Whoopsy, the "BMR" is true to its name. Quite innovative, and partially successful. But see there:

Quote from audioholics

The ribbon tweeter shows its signature, in that the vertical dispersion is objectively compromised. It is worse than with good domes, which again would have the same or better horizontal dispersion, e/g 3/4" types.

I don't understand the idea to change these in favor of a two-way design with the same tweeter signature. Whatever You like.

 

[CDMC]

Thank you. This conversation got me thinking about other 2 way designs incorporating RAAL ribbons and whether or not there are any general criticisms of these 2 way configurations. Salk came to mind because of the association with Philharmonic so I did find the Supercharged Song. I didn't know Dennis designed the crossover. Knowing this may not alleviate all concerns but sure does go a long ways.

I believe Dennis designed all the crossovers for Salk. He visits here occasionally, as he does other sites. If you ask, he is known to tell how the different speakers sound compared to each other (i.e. Salk Supercharged v. BMR) since he designed or had a hand in the design of all of them.

 

[snapsc]

2d flyer....it would seem that you really can't go wrong with either loudspeaker as both will be easy to resell (if/when you are ready to change it up later) and both retain a lot of their value. I suspect the 2EX will sound more like the BMR...so if you like that sound, then maybe its an easy decision...or it might just be fun to change things up now and try the Revel.

Again, no wrong decision and with 30 day trials and fairly light weight speakers, the return costs aren't back breakers.

One really nice thing about the 2EX...they really have some nice finish options.

 

[snapsc]

Here is a good option to consider.

 

[2DFlier]

I don't understand the idea to change these in favor of a two-way design with the same tweeter signature. Whatever You like.

I’m not changing. I’m keeping the BMR and looking for new speakers for a second system.
I’m relatively inexperienced at this but read recently the limited vertical dispersion can be a good thing. When actively listening I’m typically in the listening window so not too concerned about vertical but I could be missing an important point.

I suspect the 2EX will sound more like the BMR...so if you like that sound, then maybe its an easy decision...or it might just be fun to change things up now and try the Revel.
Again, no wrong decision and with 30 day trials and fairly light weight speakers, the return costs aren't back breakers.
One really nice thing about the 2EX...they really have some nice finish options.

I didn’t state it explicitly but I actually spent a month with both. The ride was up on the Sierras the other day so I had to send them back. I might have kept them and returned the Revels except for the beautiful but way low WAF natural finish. After 30 years of marriage I still haven‘t learned that “I don’t care, get whatever %&$#!? color you want” actually means get whatever you want as long as I like it. Anyway the Revel return window is still open so I can reorder the wife approved color.

 

[2DFlier]

When looking at small ID manufacturers vs larger dealer based manufacturers...Which is better probably depends, but evidence on this sight so far seems to show in favor of big brands.

Tell me more.

I believe Dennis designed all the crossovers for Salk. He visits here occasionally, as he does other sites. If you ask, he is known to tell how the different speakers sound compared to each other (i.e. Salk Supercharged v. BMR) since he designed or had a hand in the design of all of them.

Excellent idea, even at the risk of asking questions whose answers I can’t really afford.

 

[HammerSandwich]

In Ascend's defense, their designer said they suspected there was something wrong with the ribbon in the unit that was reviewed.

The massive THD spike around 3.3kHz is definitely unusual, so very possibly. That said, @GelbeMusik makes a strong point about high distortion with ribbons.

You've probably seen this, @napilopez, but I'll add an example for those who have not.

Here are RAAL 70-20XR measurements at Hificompass. (Note that this is running with a 2kHz HP, while our comparison dome HPs at 800Hz.) Because response slopes off below 4kHz, set HD 315mm to 5.6V (roughly 96dB up top). Ready? Now compare a Peerless DX20 at 8V (98dB). The 20mm dome does produce slightly more H2, but the ribbon loses badly in H3-H5, even while running at lower SPL and with a higher XO. But the punchline here is that the DX20's just a high-value, cheap example. PE sells it for $8.

 

[echopraxia]

Ribbons have pros and cons. They have a big “pro” that seems hard to beat: extremely wide dispersion. Not only does this make for a nice spacious sound in general, but can be quite convenient for TV or music listening with a wide range of seating angles.

For example, in one room with my Ascend Sierra 2EX speakers there is seating along the side of the room, yet the sound is not noticeably diminished in SPL or clarity/quality when listening from that position. In contrast, when I had the KEF R3 in this same room (which has much narrower directivity than Ascend or Revel), there was a relatively narrow “sweet spot”, and listening significantly off axis was not nearly as good of an experience. Revel is not bad though, but still not nearly as good in this respect as the Sierra 2EX.

Anyway, the point is that these are all tradeoffs. The KEF R3 was not suitable at all to the listening experience needs of that room, while the Ascend Sierra 2EX worked excellently.

It sounds like OP has already has a month to listen to both though — is that right? If so, I’m not exactly sure what the question is here. We can’t really answer any better than OP can in that case. Once both speakers have measurements on this site, it may be easier. But the Sierra 2EX is not yet measured here (the Sierra 2 is not the same speaker).

 

[jonfitch]

The Sierra 2 EX has a fuller sound, and Harman's research implies 30-35% of preference comes from bass, so it has a pretty good advantage here.

In terms of directivity, it's a ribbon tweeter (very wide dispersion) mated a 6" woofer (narrow dispersion at crossover point). This is not too ideal, when I listened to the Sierra 2 EX I felt like there were some integration discontinuities on the vertical axis--the ribbon cast a wide soundstage and the mids just weren't as wide and it was obvious.

That said there's such a huge difference in dispersion performance between a ribbon like the RAAL and a traditional woofer that integration is hard, regardless of driver size. Even when I listened to the Salk Silk, which has a smaller 5.5" woofer and the 70-20 RAAL, which has narrower dispersion than the 64-10 on the Sierra 2, I still felt like the ribbon was clearly casting a much wider image than the woofer.

The only time I've felt the integration was decent from an imaging perspective was with Scansonic/Raidho which uses much smaller 4.5" woofers with a waveguided ribbon/planar driver.

You will have to decide which you want to keep if its just for a stereo setup. The Sierra 2 EX have better construction and certainly look a lot better and can stand on their own without a sub better, while the M105 looks pretty hideous without the grill on, but it seems like Revel figured that to be the case and designed a top hat on top of the cabinet that sits flush with the grill.

 

[Zvu]

Does anyone here have Sierra with ribbon tweeter, microphone and REW installed ?

One sweep would solve the mystery if the distortion in tweeter just measures like that or the one measured by Amir was broken.

 

[GelbeMusik]

I’m relatively inexperienced at this but read recently the limited vertical dispersion can be a good thing. When actively listening

There is a lot of talking around from people regarding this and that. I cannot detangle it, because I don't know what You might have read and/or heard before. It is useless to discuss such a case as "ribbon" because every other time somebody chimes in with the next mythological claim.

The vertically limited dispersion is a bug becomes feature thing. So clearly that it is hilarious. If it was on purpose, the implementation was not only coarse, but uncontrolled, more so left to chance.

Same with distortion: it is considered not perceptible. C'mon, same with a 10 inch scratch on Your cars body. Doesn't take from top speed …

And more ...

My personal experience with ribbons is as bad as it gets. And they are so unnecessary, see good small domes, waveguides etc., a high end myth and exactly none else.

 

[echopraxia]

Does anyone here have Sierra with ribbon tweeter, microphone and REW installed ?

One sweep would solve the mystery if the distortion in tweeter just measures like that or the one measured by Amir was broken.

I posted a full set of measurements for 5 Ascend speakers with RAAL tweeters here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/in-room-measurements-rew-ascend-raal-sierra-towers-horizon-2ex-and-revel-f206.10058

 

[echopraxia]

There is a lot of talking around from people regarding this and that. I cannot detangle it, because I don't know what You might have read and/or heard before. It is useless to discuss such a case as "ribbon" because every other time somebody chimes in with the next mythological claim.

The vertically limited dispersion is a bug becomes feature thing. So clearly that it is hilarious. If it was on purpose, the implementation was not only coarse, but uncontrolled, more so left to chance.

Same with distortion: it is considered not perceptible. C'mon, same with a 10 inch scratch on Your cars body. Doesn't take from top speed …

And more ...

My personal experience with ribbons is as bad as it gets. And they are so unnecessary, see good small domes, waveguides etc., a high end myth and exactly none else.

Yes, you’ve made it clear that you don’t like ribbons. What else are you adding to the conversation?

Until the perfect speaker exists, everything is a trade-off. Your analogy comparing inaudible dispersion to a big scratch on a car is a poor analogy. Here’s a better one:

Some cars exist that are faster than any other car in a straight line, but unable to handle corners. Other cars are exceptional at handling comers, but not as good accelerating in a straight line. Others are fairly good at both, but lack a luxurious interior. Which car is best for you? It depends on what you want.

 

[GelbeMusik]

Yes, you’ve made it clear that you don’t like ribbons. What else are you adding to the conversation?

At least I don't invent excuses for inherent limitations, like some others did regarding the vertically uncontrolled dispersion, to remind You of only one issue. My dislike is based on engineering experience.

I'm afraid You take the discussion too personally.

 

[echopraxia]

At least I don't invent excuses for inherent limitations, like some others did regarding the vertically uncontrolled dispersion, to remind You of only one issue. My dislike is based on engineering experience.

I'm afraid You take the discussion too personally.

Don‘t worry, I’m not taking anything here personally. Your dislike of all ribbon tweeters is noted. But beyond what has already been said, your continued repetition of criticisms is not helpful or constructive.

 

[GelbeMusik]

Don‘t worry, I’m not taking anything here personally. Your dislike of all ribbon tweeters is noted. But beyond what has already been said, your continued repetition of criticisms is not helpful or constructive.

I wonder if I'm going to regret my bad bad boy feelings against ribbons once. So many details missed, go figure!